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Author Topic:   Deism in the Dock
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 61 of 270 (415529)
08-10-2007 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by crashfrog
08-10-2007 4:09 PM


crashfrog:
See, I'm largely of the opinion that questions that can't be answered aren't interesting, and simply aren't worth asking. They're a waste of time.
The really interesting questions are the ones with answers that are hard, but not impossible, to get to. The ones that can't ever be answered - why bother? What on Earth do you gain when you ask such a question?
Insight.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 08-10-2007 4:09 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 08-10-2007 4:28 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 62 of 270 (415536)
08-10-2007 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Archer Opteryx
08-10-2007 4:18 PM


Insight.
Looks like you misspelled "self-congratulatory masturbation." The insightful questions are the ones you can answer. Answerless questions are just an exercise in wankery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-10-2007 4:18 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-10-2007 6:25 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 63 of 270 (415548)
08-10-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by crashfrog
08-10-2007 4:28 PM


living the questions
Looks like you misspelled "self-congratulatory masturbation."
I wasn't thinking of myself. Rilke, actually.
You are so young, so much before all beginning. I beg you, Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart. Try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very exotic language. Don't search for the answers. They would not be given to you now, because you are not yet able to live them. The point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.
Rainer Maria Rilke
Letters to a Young Poet
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : provided quote.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 08-10-2007 4:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 08-11-2007 1:05 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 64 of 270 (415557)
08-10-2007 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Straggler
08-10-2007 3:20 PM


Yes, it would be interesting to know where the "rules" come from. But ultimately every rule seems to rest on another. So probably there is some basic reality that just is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2007 3:20 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 65 of 270 (415559)
08-10-2007 8:19 PM


ATHEISM DISPROVED!!!!!!!!!!
My fellow atheists . .
When I wrote the OP I ended it with
In the unlikely event that this (slightly drunken) rant gets promoted I would like to hear from anyone who can imagine that they are wrong.
Anyone else can stuff off elsewhere!
Now most of you do not seem to have got down as far as that.
Instead you got as far as the end of my not particularly serious, and admittedly rather feeble, attack on atheism before laying into this mercilessly and at face value.
Fair enough I suppose. I should have been clearer in my intentions
BUT what I was, evidently unsuccessfully, trying to achieve was not a serious critique or attack on atheism.
Instead I was looking for atheists to consider the question of deism as an alternative to atheism in terms of explaining why there are laws of nature or where laws of nature actually come from.
Does deism have any merits in that respect in your opinion?
I have recently been reading both ”Brief History of Time’ by Hawking and ”Parallel Worlds’ by Michio Kaku. Both of these books end with the question of an ultimate ”designer’ very much open. Not a personal God but an instigator of the fundamental laws that define the universe or even multiverse. The ”designer’ of the ultimate equation if you will.
It may be that these books do this to avoid alienating a theistically minded audience. This is quite possible. I don’t know and I don’t claim to know.
BUT if these thinkers at the forefront of the field do not automatically reject the idea out of hand what makes you think that you know better with barely even any thought given to the subject? Are you that arrogant?
I am asking atheists to consider this concept as a possibility and to give their views on it rather than just dismissing any opposition to absolute atheism as obviously and trivially stupid.
In my OP I also wrote
You smug bastards
This was intended largely as a joke as I assumed most would be aware of my strongly atheistic tendencies from previous conversations.
However I do think the atheist responses I got were quite patronising in tone and not all that constructive in content. In many ways the parody became reality.
It was interesting be on the other side of the fence for a change. Despite it being in a pseudo sort of way.
No wonder we have so few real creationists around. Even allowing for the paucity of the creationist argument I can see why it would take a thick-skinned opponent to hang around for any length of time. To even suggest that you lot should consider that you even might be wrong takes a certain sort of masochism.
As for the subject heading of this post - That was just to get you attention
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Chiroptera, posted 08-10-2007 10:23 PM Straggler has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 270 (415568)
08-10-2007 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Archer Opteryx
08-10-2007 2:18 PM


Re: The exclusive nature of religions
The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed.
The kingdom of heaven is like a pearl.
The kingdom of heaven is like a lost coin.
The kingdom of heaven is like a thief in the night.
The kingdom of heaven is like a sower sowing seed.
The kingdom of heaven is like yeast.
Mutually exclusive propositions all
Only if you are limiting descriptions of heaven. Who says that parables concerning heaven have to stop at one? If Jesus said in one instance, there is only one heaven, and then in the next, there are multiple heavens, I would say that you have a point. But it doesn't.
But we digress, as the topic is about deism.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-10-2007 2:18 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 270 (415573)
08-10-2007 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Straggler
08-10-2007 8:19 PM


Re: ATHEISM DISPROVED!!!!!!!!!!
Instead you got as far as the end of my not particularly serious, and admittedly rather feeble, attack on atheism before laying into this mercilessly and at face value.
Huh? I knew exactly what you were doing and what you meant. I assumed that everyone else did, too. I assumed, and I think everyone else did, too, that despite the jocularity of your post, you were asking for a serious discussion. Well, everyone, as far as I can see, have been answering as the points in contention deserve to be answered.
-
Does deism have any merits in that respect in your opinion?
Not really, in my opinion. I'm not even sure these "why" type of questions even make sense. I suspect that even if they do, they don't have answers. "The universe simply exists" doesn't seem to me to be any less satisfying than "Some god somewhere somehow made the universe at some time," and it certainly has fewer moving parts.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2007 8:19 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 08-11-2007 4:44 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 68 of 270 (415576)
08-10-2007 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by RAZD
08-09-2007 7:21 PM


Re: As the resident Deist ...
quote:
Not a problem - it's hard not to offend people when you call them out on the logic of their position.
Essentially the question comes down to "is there a god of any kind or not?"
The atheist decides that there is not, in spite of this being a logically invalid conclusion.
The deist decides that there is, in spite of this being a logically invalid conclusion.
The agnostic makes no decision -- in essence concluding that the jury is still out on the question. This is the only logically valid conclusion (which should answer your question why they exist).
The theist decides that there is, in spite of this being a logically invalid conclusion, but they also feel they need to reinforce this by adopting a convenient religion, as this frees them from facing the fact it is a just a choice.
I completely agree. Thats why I became an agnostic after years of being a YEC. Mostly it was physical hardships that after months of prayers nothing happened but things got better as soon as I went to the doctor. Technically speaking, God made me agnostic by ignoring those and other prayers. I haven't completely shifted towards atheism because theres something inside of me that bends towards faith (maybe ill become a deist someday instead of a theist again) but i must admit i am in a process of finding some answers so I came here to learn. I used to be active here a few years ago back when I was a flag waving YEC but times have changed

Mangekyo Sharingan. Youre trapped in my genjutsu now!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by RAZD, posted 08-09-2007 7:21 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 08-10-2007 11:37 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 90 by RAZD, posted 08-11-2007 1:05 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 270 (415579)
08-10-2007 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Itachi Uchiha
08-10-2007 11:05 PM


Re: As the resident Deist ...
Jazz, you need to get the Admins to merge your accounts.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 08-10-2007 11:05 PM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 08-11-2007 12:41 AM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 270 (415581)
08-10-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
08-09-2007 1:05 AM


What You're Forgetting
Crashfrog writes:
Who the hell knows? It's the same problem for the theists, though - stuff comes from nothing under their model, too. Indeed, much more so - because they have a God that comes from nothing, too.
There you go again, lumping all theists into one lump. What about the ever growing batch of us rational theists who argue for an eternal God and an eternal universe in which he has eternally existed, creating, destroying and managing things in it to suit his pleasure, design and purpose, from whom all things came and by whom all things exist the perpetual machine if you will?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 08-09-2007 1:05 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 71 of 270 (415585)
08-11-2007 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
08-08-2007 8:13 PM


Agnostics Rule
Straggler writes:
To Agnostics
Oh who cares what you guys think?
We agnostics are more loyal to logic than either the atheist or deist/theist camps: any God or "ultimate reality" is unknown and probably unknowable.
The rest of you just like to choose sides and pick fights.
Extremists, all of you--true believers, every last one.

Real things always push back.
-William James
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 08-08-2007 8:13 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 08-11-2007 12:43 AM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 08-11-2007 1:15 AM Omnivorous has replied
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 08-11-2007 5:44 AM Omnivorous has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 72 of 270 (415594)
08-11-2007 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
08-10-2007 11:37 PM


Re: As the resident Deist ...
yep thats me. you recognized me eh! Can you help me with the merging of accounts thing

Mangekyo Sharingan. Youre trapped in my genjutsu now!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 08-10-2007 11:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 08-11-2007 12:43 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied
 Message 79 by Adminnemooseus, posted 08-11-2007 1:23 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 270 (415595)
08-11-2007 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Itachi Uchiha
08-11-2007 12:41 AM


Re: As the resident Deist ...
'fraid not. But one of the Admins can.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 08-11-2007 12:41 AM Itachi Uchiha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 08-11-2007 12:44 AM jar has replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 74 of 270 (415596)
08-11-2007 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Omnivorous
08-11-2007 12:05 AM


Re: Agnostics Rule
quote:
We agnostics are more loyal to logic than either the atheist or deist/theist camps: any God or "ultimate reality" is unknown and probably unknowable.
The rest of you just like to choose sides and pick fights.
Extremists, all of you--true believers, every last one.
Amen brother

Mangekyo Sharingan. Youre trapped in my genjutsu now!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Omnivorous, posted 08-11-2007 12:05 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 75 of 270 (415597)
08-11-2007 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
08-11-2007 12:43 AM


Re: As the resident Deist ...
youre not an admin no more?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 08-11-2007 12:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 08-11-2007 1:04 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

  
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