Deism in the Dock

What makes them straw men is that you set them up as the only possibilities, and then conclude from your argument that deism does not make any sense. Your inability to see other possibilities is your shortcoming and your failure to understand. Hardly, it's your stunning arrogance to think you know more about what I believe than I do. See what I mean? You think you know all the definitions and all the possible philosophical positions.This from someone who posted that the US border is 98% land, and then tried to dodge when it was pointed out that it isn't even close. Someone who regularly misrepresents what others are saying in debates to the point where there are constant comments from many different posters about this problem -- it's not them, nem, it's you. You don't "ground-truth" the arguments you use.You couldn't even acknowledge that you were blatantly absurdly unmistakably pathetically wrong on the US border. You can't handle the truth, you're too busy building artificial barriers to understanding it. No, nem. What I lambaste is the mindless equation of the appearance of design with actual design and the lazy assumption that this is sufficient. What I lambaste is lazy thinking, thinking that is superficial and not based on "ground-truthed" arguments. A faith chosen by conscious intent with full understanding that it is a choice is not blind. Assuming your faith is absolutely true is. Especially when you cling to any beliefs that are contradicted by evidence. I do. Your inability to understand it is not my problem.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This may get long, and it may be the last I post on this thread. Actually I expected some "piling" for this and the "godless in the gaps" comments, but I have also been over similar ground before with PaulK and Crash and others on other threads.I don't think a creationist would make the argument - for (most of) them anything not smacking of their version of theology is atheist in their eyes, even other christians (they aren't "real" christians).But the argument on agnostics is also compelling: if there is sufficient evidence to validate either theism or atheism then there should be no agnostics. Agnostics would have no philosophical "axe to grind" on whether god(s) existed or not, no commitment to anything but logical evaluation of the evidence.The best you have on the atheist side is the "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" -- the "godless in the gaps" argument.The best you have on the theist side is the "argument from design" -- along with all the problems of apparent design versus distinguishing what just happens due to natural processes and the (open) question of whether those processes were designed. Given that a basic tenet of deism is that god(s) is (are) essentially unknowable - per definition below (that is closest to my personal philosophy\belief):Deism Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition

quote:

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de·ism
The belief that God has created the universe but remains apart from it and permits his creation to administer itself through natural laws. Deism thus rejects the supernatural aspects of religion, such as belief in revelation in the Bible, and stresses the importance of ethical conduct. In the eighteenth century, numerous important thinkers held deist beliefs.

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This means your questions are not answerable at this time (although we may grow into them). Note also that by this definition there would necessarily be an "absence of evidence" ... (so much for that argument).Philosophically we can make many hypothesis, but none of them are testable or verifiable, and so they all remain just philosophical concepts. One of my personal favorites is where a singularity expands and turns into a seething bundle of plasmic energy that becomes conscious, attains enlightenment, and also perceives that it's time is limited due to continued expansion; it organizes things to create maximum chaos with laws that create natural organization (strange attractors) to provide the maximum diversity of worlds possible and potential for existence, then it expands to the point when it loses consciousness with the final words "surprise me" ... as it becomes the universe. Spontaneous generation of a limited "window of opportunity" deity. But I could be wrong eh? You mean like "why are there Brigadier Generals but no Brigadier Specifics?"Deism is a way of looking at "life, the universe and everything" - one that uses science to best understand the universe that is understandable with science, and that uses philosophy to build on that foundation. Many of those philosophical understandings are personal conclusions. Many of these have to do with the place and role of spirituality in our understanding of "life, the universe and everything" and behavior, and with the definition of moral behavior based on logical evaluations. Science and philosophy are tools used to understand. Why I am a deist is part of this larger question.I am inspired by the thinking and effect of enlightened thinkers like Gandhi, Thoreau, and the founding fathers and the power of such spiritual\philosophical thinking to make ethical and moral change in the world.Deism doesn't need to be "superior" to other faiths\philosophies, it just needs to be personally consistent (and not contradicted by evidence).But the biggest problem is that deism is a personal journey with no dogma, no "hand" to hold: each deist will have a different take on all these issues, so asking me to define what all deists think is not going to get a valid answer - I can't speak for anyone else.I've said my "peace" -- take it or leave it.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

That's a double copout. First, there's no pay-as-you-go accountability if you can get off scot-free by repeating the prescribed mumbo-jumbo on your deathbed. Second, there's no accountability at all if somebody else pays the bill.Obedience to a judge/tyrant doesn't require morality at all, only fear.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Ringo:So, you're saying that I should simply follow the logical outworkings of a deistic worldview in spite of my own personal survival instincts, for the benefit of all; or, put another way, blindly lay down my own personal interests (such as my sexual preferences)for the sake the greater human future which is destined to be extinguished by the 2nd law of thermodynamics anyway?Besides mentioning that you are free to lead by example, I have to ask... 'why?' In saying what you did, you must be assuming some purpose or meaning to 'being' such as, 'it's just the right thing to do' which is necessarily invoking some metaphysical concept of meaning and purpose.Your appeal to conscious (our internal and intuitive knowledge) is no different than God's...Furthermore, since when does Christianity profess blind obedience without understanding? Your conflating the Christian and Jewish God with the concept of Allah.The Biblical God is not some 'Totally Transcendant Will' to be followed, but rather one that is understood with training, wisdom, experience, and personal communion. God is relational... not absent, deistic, or wholly outside of our experience.Why do you think God had the Israelites roaming in the desert for forty years when they could have went straight into the promised land in a matter of weeks? Just to torture and humiliate them for His own sick pleasure? No wonder you dislike Him, you utterly misuderstand Him.No... it was to show them themselves and how fickle their faith and how short-sided their vision was. It was to test them, and push them like a coach pushes a team to be better than it starts out to be. Did you never have someone to teach you these things... all of us didn't in this day and age (myself included).God opens the eyes of the blind Ringo, He doesn't shut eyes that are already closed.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Ringo:First of all... every conversion is a 'death bed' conversion because all of us are dying. Some figure that out sooner than others. A genuine repentance is all that is required. If it is only a swooned conversion, then the outcome will not be forgiveness. there is no covering of bases, but only genuine repentance or not.Secondly, if you insist on paying for your own sins, you are free to do so. But if somebody doesn't pay, then God is not absolutely just.But He is... frighteningly so...If you cannot see the desperate measures that He went through to show us how horribly sinful sin is, and how serious He is about His unwillingness to tolerate it, then of course the cross will not make sense to you.It will also not make sense if you cannot understand His absolute Mercy and Grace, in combination with His absolute Justice. To you, He must be one or the other, and though this may be so within finite terms, this is not so with the Infinite God.You can't see it?But you can see it, and that is why He did it, so that it would not be some distant religious concept, but a hard, bloody, physical, and emperical reality.You still will not believe... even though He couldn't have given a brighter light to get your attention, and for you to examine for yourself.Yes Ringo... He died for you too. He died for us all before we understood why, and even before most had ever sinned.Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Reject that and we will pay ourselves because justice must be served. If it were not so, then justice would be a travesty.I think it was G.K. Chesterton who said, "I am not going to complain that God did not give us many ways to Heaven. I am going to thank Him for giving at least one'. (paraphrased)The thing to grasp is that we really do deserve death. And it is no coincidence that we will all die. Personally, I wouldn't want to live with this corrupted half-life of a body, in a half-life of a life forever anyway.Which reminds me, that people talk of pergatory... even C.S. Lewis, whom I greatly admire, held some rather bizzare views on the concept. This is pergatory friends... this is the last chance to understand. And if you don't believe in your own depravity, then consider that your own motivations for not wanting to believe, and you'll soon see that the problem isn't with God and his message, but your own selfish will (and that is autobiographical of course... though not limited to my own human experince. It is the human experience whether it is confessed or not).So don't back yourself into a corner yet... leave your options open for belief, because you never know when He might reach you...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

No. I'm saying you should follow your own conscience instead of what some guy said about some guy who might have said something about some god. I'm saying that charting your own path requires more courage, responsibility and morality than following somebody else's.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Congratulations on missing the point completely.I was talking about how deism - i.e. a philosophy with no revealed "Truth" - requires a person to take more responsibility for his own actions, not less as you claimed. It's because of the supposed "desperate measures that He went through" that Christianity is the easy way out for you.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Ringo:But that's just the thing... my conscious confirms what the Bible already says. I don't think your talking about conscious. I think your conflating the little voice that says, 'don't do that', with the little voice that says, 'do it.'You're also assuming that my concious is my own. How do you know that? Maybe I am the one who wants to, 'do it'; and my conscious is God's kingdom within, trying to bring me home from ruin.How can I know the way?What you call strength, courage, and charting my own path, I call foolish, selfish, and prideful. History is replete with those who charted their own course, and few of us look upon them favorably. The reason is that they do not live in a vaccuum. Their decisions affect the rest of us who share this world.How can I plot my own course without taking yours into consideration, and vice-versa? We will inevitably disagree when our wills collide.Fortunately, we at least discuss our differences. But in doing so, we assume reason to be within the grasp of each other. some people are not interested in reason. They are the condemend; and not by us mind you... we do not want to condemn anyone, but by themselves. They leave us no choice. Right there is the real life example of both mercy and justice in action. All the while, mercy is refused...

So the Bible is redundant. That involves looking around you at what courses others are on. That's specific information that you won't get from an outside source like the Bible.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Ringo:Sounds to me like Deism (with no revealed truth) takes a leap of faith that is far more tenuous than that of the 'seing faith' of Christ.You boys are insidious... first you mock our faith as blind, and then in the same day, show your appriciation for the strength and fortitude it takes to have blind faith. Gee wiz...Christianity is not the easy way out Ringo. It is the hard way, and the only way out. And it is so, because you will not get any glory for leaving control in the hands of another. And prideful creatures want glory more than anything...Why do you think you and I are here?Of course there is more than one reason, but not the least of which is showing each other just how smart we really are. Only in my case, the knowledge is not my own, it is God's.Am I inventing reality by agreeing with it?

Ringo:In the sciences, it is known as consistency and confirmation of a theory (theo). But even what they say confirms the Bible...Even evil points to God's goodness.

That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Instead of relying on faith, deists (as I understand it) rely on their knowledge of the real world around them. Faith is only for what we don't see - no leaping required.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Ringo: The real world?Now your talking about reality from a purely secular (this worldy) point of view?Some people love theri neighbors, others eat them... that's reality? Do you have a preference?Tell me Ringo... what is reality? Is it the here and now that we must compromise with to survive? Or is it the intended purpose that our conscious confirms, before humans tried to think for themselves outside of one parameter, and become imaginative?There was only one rule... and we broke it. Now we need hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of them. Don't you get it?

No, an empirical point of view, where Christians and Muslims and Hindus and deists and atheists and agnostics all get the same answers.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Ringo:Well, at least you acknowledge the exclusivity of truth. Anglagard, Archeropterix, PaulK et al... seem to have difficulty grasping that concept. Nice to see you get it.So, there really is only one way, one truth, and one life...You're alright Ringo...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.