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Author Topic:   Evolution is random! Stop saying it isn't!
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 99 (416019)
08-13-2007 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by epo5
08-13-2007 10:38 AM


Re: Got it.
'Good' and 'bad' mutations is kind of a poor description. The environmental conditions will determine what's good and bad often times, and these environmental changes mean genetic preference changes. Cold weather, hot weather, or increased or decreased sunlight or rain Increased rain and decreased sunlight for example means tree become predominant and increased sunlight with decreased rain leads to grasses becoming predominant for example. Whats beneficial for one generation might prove disastrous to the next, and the mutation that proved fatal so many times before may provide the tool for exploiting a new environmental niche to the next.
The lack of fossils is as ridiculous an argument as the Kirk Cameron argument for the lack of a 'crocaduck' as evidence against evolution. Utterly ridiculous. You really need to understand how few animals have ever been fossilized then realize how many species will never be represented in the fossil records.
Edited by EighteenDelta, : No reason given.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
--------------
"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould
----------------
“ I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ”
”Stephen F. Roberts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by epo5, posted 08-13-2007 10:38 AM epo5 has not replied

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 99 (416032)
08-13-2007 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by epo5
08-13-2007 1:01 PM


Re: Fossil record PROVES Darwinian evolution never happened
First I's like to say, thanks for condescending to all of us.
Second I'd like to submit this to you, The fossil records are in fact full of 'unfit' species. The vast majority are extinct, and not without cause. Do you mean to complain at the lack of mutated monstrosities that fill horror movies? Two head snakes? What are you asking to find in the records? Crocaducks?
Edited by EighteenDelta, : No reason given.
Edited by EighteenDelta, : No reason given.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
--------------
"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould
----------------
“ I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ”
”Stephen F. Roberts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by epo5, posted 08-13-2007 1:01 PM epo5 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by epo5, posted 08-13-2007 3:17 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 99 (416048)
08-13-2007 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by bdfoster
08-13-2007 1:56 PM


Re: Fossil record PROVES Darwinian evolution never happened
There may well be examples of these evolutionary dead ends already filling the cabinets of palaeontologists. There are fossils represented by single examples, while the vast majority of those are surely not the kinds of 'failed experiments' you are talking about, certainly some of them could. Even in our own branch of that tree we have evolutionary dead ends, like the Homo floresiensis. That seems to fit the description of what Epo5 is asking for pretty well.
Edited by EighteenDelta, : No reason given.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
--------------
"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould
----------------
“ I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ”
”Stephen F. Roberts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by bdfoster, posted 08-13-2007 1:56 PM bdfoster has not replied

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 99 (416058)
08-13-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by crashfrog
08-13-2007 3:15 PM


Re: Fossil record PROVES Darwinian evolution never happened
It's just the usual Loki's Wager maneuvering. Science will never be able to provide enough transitional species to satisfy those who don't want to be satisfied and there will never be enough examples of 'failed experiments' given to satisfy those who don't want to be convinced.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
--------------
"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould
----------------
“ I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ”
”Stephen F. Roberts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2007 3:15 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by epo5, posted 08-13-2007 4:55 PM EighteenDelta has not replied

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 99 (416064)
08-13-2007 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by crashfrog
08-13-2007 3:30 PM


Re: Crocaducks
The only people who think that there should be transitional species between every existent species are those who really don't understand the tenants of evolution. Epo5, I don't ridicule you, I point to the straw man creationist so often construct to knock down with grand applause with self deluded belief that it proves a point. I am not accusing you, in this case, of intentionally misrepresenting evolution, I think you simply are one of the people who has already been mislead by someone else to believe that this really is the case. And thank you for addressing the quote in my sig block...
Edited by EighteenDelta, : No reason given.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
--------------
"Debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact ” which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. They are good at that. I don't think I could beat the creationists at debate. I can tie them. But in courtrooms they are terrible, because in courtrooms you cannot give speeches. In a courtroom you have to answer direct questions about the positive status of your belief. We destroyed them in Arkansas. On the second day of the two-week trial we had our victory party!"
-Stephen Jay Gould
----------------
“ I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ”
”Stephen F. Roberts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2007 3:30 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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