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Author Topic:   Deism in the Dock
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 166 of 270 (416128)
08-14-2007 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Chiroptera
08-13-2007 10:52 PM


If I remember my fundamentalist eschatology correctly, after Satan is thrown into hell, there isn't going to be any more sin, and the new heaven and the new earth is going to be filled with all these non-diverse robots that God didn't want in the first place.
Wrong... they will still be able to sin... but like Jesus, they won't. Because they have learned. And they will each bring their own unique and indivdual traits with them. Such a tremendous diversity, that it cannot be fathomed from this plane of existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Chiroptera, posted 08-13-2007 10:52 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by anglagard, posted 08-14-2007 4:45 AM Rob has replied
 Message 172 by Chiroptera, posted 08-14-2007 1:09 PM Rob has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 167 of 270 (416130)
08-14-2007 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:17 AM


I Thought This Thread Was About Deism
I thought this thread was about Deism, which evidently is too complex an idea to be properly addressed by ideologues. Once again Rob, I wonder how God could possibly find enough room in your soul to find enough space to even be a consideration in your gargantuan ego.
But then again, I see that you are making friends among those who are also the self-proclaimed perfect, whatever the side of the fence they may lie upon.
Heaven forbid that there may be Deists like Jefferson, Locke or Voltaire, just like heaven forbid there may be Spinoza Pantheists like the namesake or Einstein or Joseph Campbell. What an awful thing to even entertain the idea that there may be more than one path to God when your puny tinhorn fuhrers have said otherwise. I can see that there are those who disagree with the First Amendment, that thing about freedom of religion, considering that we have such earthly gods in our presence that by their very existence shows that any religion but their own, inherently negates the necessity for any such law.
The only way to God is through Rob/Robs foursquare church/Robs translation of the Bible/Robs idiotic belief that CS Lewis is the be-all, end-all, of Christianity.
But of course we also have your new buddy, the almighty Crash. Like you he only allows two-bit thinking like a two-bit whore (bit as defined in the computer sense, either on or off, with nothing else). Either one must be a YEC fundie or one is the Neizchcean ideal, all or nothing with no room in between, lest the people who created not just religious tolerance but even modern democracy and indeed as part of the process, the scientific method itself, be called "weenies."
I look forward to your newfound commonality. Let's rock.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:17 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 11:48 AM anglagard has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 168 of 270 (416140)
08-14-2007 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Rob
08-12-2007 7:22 PM


Re: The Four (or more) Directions
In the sciences, it is known as consistency and confirmation of a theory (theo).
You know better Rob. Just because you put parantheses after a word with a second word does not redefine it.
And if you're trying to play your old, tired game of "theory is theo", you're dead wrong there. Need I show you all the evidence again that says that theory is "thea + horan"? Where is your evidence that "theo" is part of the root of "theory"?
Repeat after me: "Theory is not theo. Theory is not theo. Theory is not theo."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Rob, posted 08-12-2007 7:22 PM Rob has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 169 of 270 (416170)
08-14-2007 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:14 AM


Re: playing God's advocate for you...
How so? Could He also prevent us from lying and becoming homosexuals?
If he existed and was so inclined, yes. He's supposed to be omnipotent, right?
You set a pretty low bar for omnipotence, I guess.
But you are not the measure... God is.
I'm pretty sure God comes down against raping 10-year-old girls to death, but I could be wrong, I guess.
C.S. lewis struggled with this same issue and said later that he was very angry with God for not existing. He also said that if there is no God, then we have another problem... how to explain the good?
Lewis's problem was that nobody had invented game theory when he was around. Game theory is a branch of mathematics that (sort of, kind of) attempts to describe the advantageous and disadvantageous strategies in various sorts of games, like the prisoner's dilemma.
One finding of game theory is that, in a test where you subject various hypothetical individuals to the prisoner's dilemma over and over again, the individual who pursues a strategy of retribution - favoring those who acted favorably towards him, punishing those who punished him - is the most successful.
This suggests that people do good because there's a marked advantage, generally, towards following the golden rule. Of course, suggesting that people are motivated to do good by self-interest also implies that they'll cheat or behave immorally when that's in their self-interest - i.e. when they don't think they'll be caught - and oddly enough, that's also exactly what we see.
There's good because we live in a society that rewards good and punishes bad. You and Lewis act like that's some kind of miracle, but it's the most mundane thing.
We must look at the big picture, and not jump to always crucifying the guilty. Lest we crucify ourselves.
Look, I'll pay my parking tickets or whatever if it means no more 10-year-olds raped to death. That's still a pretty small price to pay.
You're really reaching here to defend a God that allows that kind of shenanigans for no good reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:14 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 12:59 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 170 of 270 (416184)
08-14-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by anglagard
08-14-2007 4:45 AM


Re: I Thought This Thread Was About Deism
Anglagard:
...Once again Rob, I wonder how God could possibly find enough room in your soul to find enough space to even be a consideration in your gargantuan ego. But then again, I see that you are making friends among those who are also the self-proclaimed perfect, whatever the side of the fence they may lie upon.
I am sorry you don't approve of my talking with sinners (like me and you).
I understand... we're beneath you Anglagard... just ignore us entirely lest your sensibilities, that are so refined and erudite, be uncontrollably disgusted with the filth around you and you hurl all over yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by anglagard, posted 08-14-2007 4:45 AM anglagard has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 171 of 270 (416189)
08-14-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by crashfrog
08-14-2007 9:44 AM


Re: playing God's advocate for you...
Crash:
You're really reaching here to defend a God that allows that kind of shenanigans for no good reason.
Not at all. He has very good reasons. He doesn't want to condemn too hastily. He knows exactly what He is doing. You're looking for justice now. You want God to show Himself to you. But who responds to demands? You must ask, not demand. God is the only one in a position to demand, yet he asks with inhuman patience. He gives us the dignity of time. He certainly cold just wipe us out. He would be just in doing so. Each one of us that is...
Btw, He does show Himself by the very fact that you think your 'scenario' is unjust. Justice will come. We must be patient.
God will repay. Nothing but the ressurection can bring the girl in your scenario back. And if the perp is willing to admit he is sick, he will be pardoned too. But if he insists he did nothing wrong, then no-one can teach him. He condemns himself to his own prison.
With an attitude like yours, you're likely to take justice into your own hands if your not careful. I know that, because we have simmilar attitudes as Anglagard was so kind to point out. Unlike him, we lose our cool from time to time.
I know an angry man when I see one. And there are a lot of them here beside you and I.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by crashfrog, posted 08-14-2007 9:44 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 08-14-2007 2:51 PM Rob has replied
 Message 187 by crashfrog, posted 08-15-2007 12:01 AM Rob has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 270 (416192)
08-14-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:17 AM


Wrong... they will still be able to sin... but like Jesus, they won't.
Huh? What? I don't remember ever learning that. You're just making that up now.
-
Because they have learned.
How? By dying? Dying teaches Christians how not to sin? Now you're not even making any sense.
-
And they will each bring their own unique and indivdual traits with them....
Except for the ability to sin, which you claim is important to have.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:17 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:59 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 173 of 270 (416198)
08-14-2007 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Rob
08-14-2007 12:59 PM


Rob writes:
He has very good reasons. He doesn't want to condemn too hastily. He knows exactly what He is doing.
The thing is, you can't know that "He has very good reasons". You can't know that "He doesn't want to condemn too hastily". You can't know that "He knows exactly what He is doing".
What you think you know is just what C. S. Lewis has told you to think.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 12:59 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 3:42 PM ringo has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 174 of 270 (416199)
08-14-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Chiroptera
08-14-2007 1:09 PM


Rob:
Wrong... they will still be able to sin... but like Jesus, they won't.
Chiroptera: Huh? What? I don't remember ever learning that. You're just making that up now.
Did you attend a church that taught the Bible? You don't remember Jesus being tempted in the wilderness? At one point he was asked to use His omnipotence for his own benefit as you and I might do.
Matthew 4:3 The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." 4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
You don't remember Him literally sweating blood in the garden of Gethsemane, because of the intense pressure brought to bear by his will to live? What did he say?
Luke: 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
God doesn't make robots Chirptera, we do. It's called artificial intelligence. Real intelligence looks at the big picture. It looks at the ultimate reality (God) and finds it's peace to endure the temporary trail. It seeks not it's own glory for a moment, but struggles to grasp something larger than self.
But our flesh has a mind of it's own. It has it's own imagination.
Chiroptera:
How? By dying? Dying teaches Christians how not to sin?
No, we die because we sin. It cannot be permitted forever. God's omnipotence does come into play eventually.
Even so, I will have to back off of my position on our ability to sin in heaven. The Bible makes it plain that we will have incoruptable bodies. Maybe even in the sense you mentioned and that Crash says God could Do if He existed.
But that is where I missed it myself!
Upon more careful examination, God does offer what Crash is seeking. But we have a choice now, whether to take the offer. The distinction is really only that God will not force us to become slaves to Hi way of doing things. he gives us a choice. That way we are conscious of our descision.
If we insist upon staying in control, he will allow it and give us our hell. But He will retain His omnipotence, and not allow us to impose ourselves on Him. he stays in control you see? But if we use our choice to accept the offer, He will wipe every tear from our eye.
Rob:
And they will each bring their own unique and indivdual traits with them....
Chiroptera: Except for the ability to sin, which you claim is important to have.
Yes... it's very important. But I confused the application. My apologies. I'm helping myself understand this as well. Quite a few pit-falls to avoid.
We have the ability now. We eat from both the knowledge of good, and evil. he'll take that away, now that we've seen the consequences. But we must also be willing to sacrifice the pleasures of flesh, for an as yet unknown (and only hoped for) utopian or heavenly eternality.
Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. (the real life that is... the one we long for and do not find here).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Chiroptera, posted 08-14-2007 1:09 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by jar, posted 08-14-2007 3:02 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 178 by DrJones*, posted 08-14-2007 4:15 PM Rob has replied
 Message 179 by Chiroptera, posted 08-14-2007 4:40 PM Rob has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 175 of 270 (416201)
08-14-2007 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:59 PM


More nonsense.
No, we die because we sin.
No, we die because we were born.
Do you ever plan to post anything either on topic, of some importance or even slightly relevant?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:59 PM Rob has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 176 of 270 (416203)
08-14-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ringo
08-14-2007 2:51 PM


Ringo:
The thing is, you can't know that "He has very good reasons". You can't know that "He doesn't want to condemn too hastily". You can't know that "He knows exactly what He is doing".
What you think you know is just what C. S. Lewis has told you to think.
First off... Lewis and I do not agree on everything. But much of what he had to say hepled me to enunciate my own thoughts. it was confirmation of what I already saw and did not know how to express. lewis had become patient and methodical. I am only learning to be so...
Secondly, be careful with that double-edged sword because by the same token, you cannot know that I don't, or that God isn't all of those things.
That's the Kantian philosophical error. To state that we 'cannot know'; that it is all purely a leap of faith for me. How can he (or you) know that since it is you and he who say 'you can't know'?
As I keep saying, you have to get outside of the box to make that stick. And that is why I asked Razd the question I did. Because all theories or theologies are ultimately philosophcial constructs which are a leap of faith (thank you Paul Davies).
The physical world is no panecea of protection, because what is seen is made from that which does not appear. Physics only points to the real solution. It can offer no certainty whatsoever.
You guys base all of your oobservations on the premise that the only thing valid is the emprical materially. Not because it's certain, but because it is the only thing we have to go on.
But if you look carefully, there is another assumption that is actually the one you are leaning on; that the premise itself is logical.
Yet, methodological naturalism is not interested in philosophical coherence. And that is incoherent. So, it is a philosophical position that tells us philosphical coherence is not valid.
You've got a problem...
So I ask you Ringo... who is it here that has been told what to think by their predeccessors?
I say no-one... We are all just looking for what it is we 'want' to believe.
The motives (selfish or not) are uncovered by asking 'why' we want to believe 'this, instead of that. And if you look at Jesus' teaching, you will see that he talks of faith and belief, faith and belief.
You can't see something you 'refuse' to believe in. not because of it's non-existence, but because you simply refuse. So one of the first questions I had to ask myself before becoming a Christian was:
1. Why do I want to believe what I currently do?
Without exposing my own dishonesty, I could not find the voice of truth.
'To thine own self be true'. (Shakespeare)
If I cannot be honest with myself, then how can I hear or see God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ringo, posted 08-14-2007 2:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 08-14-2007 3:57 PM Rob has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 177 of 270 (416209)
08-14-2007 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Rob
08-14-2007 3:42 PM


Rob writes:
... by the same token, you cannot know that I don't, or that God isn't all of those things.
I can know that nobody knows.
How can he (or you) know that since it is you and he who say 'you can't know'?
Nobody's saying that you can't know anything. That's the Robian philosophical error. I'm being very specific in saying that there is one thing you can't know: You can't know what God thinks.
You can't know what God thinks because of your own idea of what God is. If He is so far above you, there can be no meaningful revelation.
That (as I understand it) is deism.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 3:42 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 8:19 PM ringo has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 178 of 270 (416215)
08-14-2007 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:59 PM


We have the ability now. We eat from both the knowledge of good, and evil. he'll take that away, now that we've seen the consequences.
So in heaven we will be robots? Pick a position.

Live every week like it's Shark Week!
Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:59 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 8:28 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 270 (416217)
08-14-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:59 PM


I will have to back off of my position on our ability to sin in heaven....
We eat from both the knowledge of good, and evil. he'll take that away, now that we've seen the consequences.
Okay, so God will remove the ability to sin. So either lacking having the ability to sin does not make people robots (like crashfrog is saying), or God really doesn't mind it if people are robots.
Either way, God could have arranged it from the beginning so that people couldn't sin. It will be exactly what God is going to arrange anyway, except with far fewer people in hell.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:59 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 9:50 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 180 of 270 (416234)
08-14-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
08-14-2007 3:57 PM


Ringo:
You can't know what God thinks because of your own idea of what God is. If He is so far above you, there can be no meaningful revelation.
That (as I understand it) is deism.
Well, then I'm glad I'm not a deist!
He's not far at all, He's everywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 08-14-2007 3:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 08-14-2007 8:40 PM Rob has replied

  
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