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Author Topic:   Deism in the Dock
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 185 of 270 (416248)
08-14-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Rob
08-14-2007 10:21 PM


Rob writes:
I have a short memory too Ringo, so I'll give you a pass...
If He is so far above you, there can be no meaningful revelation.
"Above you" is not a location.
Or are you parroting what youve heard from some pop/sophist/philosopher?
I don't read philosophy, popular or otherwise.
Are you making it up?
I'm thinking it through.
So, why is it that you can know reality, and I can't?
Again, I didn't say that. I said, again, that you can't know what God thinks. You don't know reality because you're too busy tripping yourself up with silly word games.
So if there is no God, then how could you know that I don't know Him?
Please just try to pay attention for once. I have never said that there is no God.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 10:21 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 1:52 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 191 of 270 (416302)
08-15-2007 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Rob
08-15-2007 1:52 AM


Rob writes:
Truth and lies can both be believed... but only the truth can be known.
Foolish people believe lies and think they know the truth. The wise know how little they know.
Now, the topic is deism. Keep your bargain-basement theology to yourself.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 1:52 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 10:16 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 201 of 270 (416386)
08-15-2007 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Rob
08-15-2007 10:16 AM


Rob writes:
Can we know the truth or not?
We can know little bits of truth. We can not know The Truth™.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 10:16 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 3:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 204 of 270 (416401)
08-15-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Rob
08-15-2007 3:42 PM


Rob writes:
Ok, so we know that logic is valid, because of the emprical evidence of order and elegant mathematical struture?
That's not the topic.
I'm saying that deism makes more sense, in a way, than your brand of kindergarten theism because it doesn't claim "special knowledge" or divine revelation like you do.
But as I said before, theism has little or nothing to do with this topic anyway. The OP concerns a move from atheism to deism. The only issue for theists is:
quote:
Aren’t all those difficult theological questions about pain, death, suffering and evil much better answered by an uncaring and indifferent creator?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Rob, posted 08-15-2007 3:42 PM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by anastasia, posted 08-15-2007 5:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 210 of 270 (416416)
08-15-2007 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by anastasia
08-15-2007 5:04 PM


anastasia writes:
Deism, to me, lacks something in philosophy. It does not care how we live life....
We've been through this before. Everybody lives life depending on what they have internalized from whatever source. Theism claims a special source, but there are so many versions of that special source that it isn't special any more. It's meaningless.
A philosophy that doesn't care to dictate how we should live life seems more sound to me.
... and does not know where we ultimately wind up.
So much the better. Living our lives for reward or punishment doesn't make us better people. Doing what we need to do without hope of reward or fear of punishment is far more noble.
If a person wants to 'know' these things, revelation starts to seem like the only sensible way to learn them.
If a person wants to "know" these things, the first step is to stop wanting to know. Her time would be better spent on something useful.
Edited by Ringo, : Spilling.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by anastasia, posted 08-15-2007 5:04 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by anastasia, posted 08-16-2007 2:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 241 of 270 (416551)
08-16-2007 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by anastasia
08-16-2007 2:58 PM


anastasia writes:
Anything which we internalize can be wrong or petty or useless. Things which are meaningful are those things which can be shown to 'perform'.
And that performance is assessed in real-world terms, not by adherence to some "revealed" standard.
Did you not say that a good philosophy should not care how you live life?
Certainly not. Where ever did you get that idea?
I said that a good philosophy shouldn't dictate how you live life.
How can you make any sort of judgement call without a philosophy?
Conscience.
... I do think it is complete human nature to desire justice.
I don't. I think it's human nature to desire vengeance. Religionists are never happier than when they're revelling in the punishment that the other guy is going to get.
I don't think most religionists have any idea what justice is.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by anastasia, posted 08-16-2007 2:58 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by anastasia, posted 08-16-2007 6:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 249 of 270 (416581)
08-16-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by anastasia
08-16-2007 6:33 PM


anastasia writes:
If what is revealed makes sense, it doesn't matter where it supposedly came from.
Then the whole idea of revelation is irrelevant, as I've been saying. If it makes sense, we can figure it out for ourselves and the "revelation" is redundant. If it doesn't make sense, how can we trust it as "revelation"?
I said that a good philosophy shouldn't dictate how you live life.
A philosophy has to dictate how you live life. That's what a philosophy is, and what it does.
Nonsense. You don't get to dictate what philosophy is.
How can you make any sort of judgement call without a philosophy?
Conscience.
That's good but not enough.
Why not?
Justice: the simple concept of getting what you deserve.
Ah, but what do I deserve?
Do I deserve eternal life in heaven just because I happened to pick the right revelation? Do I deserve eternal torment because I happened to fall in love with a person with the same naughty bits? And which of those just desserts trumps the other?
I don't see how "getting what you deserve" is a remotely useful understanding of justice.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by anastasia, posted 08-16-2007 6:33 PM anastasia has not replied

  
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