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Author Topic:   Teaching Children Both Sides
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 62 (416549)
08-16-2007 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dragoness
08-03-2007 3:08 PM


I have to say, though I may have worded some answers differently, I think you did an excellent job. More importantly you need to recognize the fact that you are doing something right if she is asking questions. An inquisitive mind is a healthy mind. I think you and your husband probably would have done better to plan ahead for at least some of the foreseeable questions and that's not intended as a criticism of you as a parent. Most of these things, my wife and I have already discussed (between the two of us and how to address them) and our kids are 2 and 3 years old. I am sorry to hear you have a science/religion split home, that does make it more difficult. Over all I think you handled it well and I look forward to the same questions for my wee ones.

Edited by EighteenDelta, : No reason given.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dragoness, posted 08-03-2007 3:08 PM Dragoness has not yet responded

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 4017 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 32 of 62 (416580)
08-16-2007 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dragoness
08-16-2007 3:49 PM


Re: Update
Dragoness writes:

... maybe if I see something to make me believe, but right now I just don't.

Brilliant. If only some adults were like this. How often do you hear an adult Christian say "maybe if I see something to make me disbelieve, but right now I just don't".

By the way, did you read the little excerpt I linked to earlier? And also, that author (Dale McGowen) has been interviewed by the Infidel Guy. I suggest you listen to it, as one caller asks McGowan what to do in a mixed marriage. You can find it here or directly download/listen to it here.


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We seek contributors with a knowledge of Intelligent design to expand and review our page on this topic.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dragoness, posted 08-16-2007 3:49 PM Dragoness has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dragoness, posted 08-16-2007 8:10 PM Doddy has not yet responded

    
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 4175 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 33 of 62 (416583)
08-16-2007 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Doddy
08-16-2007 7:53 PM


Re: Update
I havent listened to it yet, it would not load and my kids are too lound right now anyway. I will listen soon.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Doddy, posted 08-16-2007 7:53 PM Doddy has not yet responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 34 of 62 (416605)
08-16-2007 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dragoness
08-16-2007 3:49 PM


Re: Update
Dragoness writes:

IN the past weeks my daughter has mentioned more than once that she firmly believes in evolution (today in a discussion about spiders.)And specifically that she does not believe in God.


I wouldn't count on this attitude being permanent.

Let's admit it. The theory of evolution is complicated. Gradualism is complicated. Natural selection, which I personally think is quite simple, is complicated according to the general consensus. "Believing" in evolution is the last thing we want to see in a child... the last thing I want to see in a child. If she can be so easily manipulated to believe one way without actually understanding the how's, what makes you think the other side can't simply pick her up and brainwash her?

However, I will continue to teach both sides.

Can't you just let her be a kid rather than putting such heavy weights on her shoulders?

Bottom line, my daughter is choosing science and evolution and has shown a true interst and learning about it.

One of our former creationist members (her username was Faith) claimed to spend the first 30 years or so of her life "believing" in evolution and science before becoming a born again. While I personally doubted that she really knew anything about science, and sure enough a few conversations I had with her revealed that she didn't know anything about science, I'd have to recognize that she was the opposite version of me.

I grew up being spoon fed the magical "goddunit" as the answer to everything I asked. When I finally matured enough to see through the bullshit, I not only abandoned christianity but also the very concept of god.

It doesn't take that much stretch of an imagination to picture a kid "believing" in science and evolution without really understanding the mechanics behind the concepts and then abandon everything science once a preacher convinces him that we live in a magical world.

Sorry for all the negative comments. I'm just not convinced a child such as your kid is capable of understanding evolution. We already have enough trouble trying to show the creationists on here that natural selection isn't conscious.

I say let her find out about it in the classroom and if she wants to pursue it she can find out more about it in college.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dragoness, posted 08-16-2007 3:49 PM Dragoness has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:26 AM Taz has responded

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 4175 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 35 of 62 (416632)
08-17-2007 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Taz
08-16-2007 11:22 PM


Re: Update
Again, I ask that this topic be about how you would have or have handled the situation, NOT about how YOU believe I have failed as a parent. I would never dream of sitting here telling you how I think you have failed as a parent, thats just disrespectful.

You do not know my child and have no business telling me to "just let the school handle it" because she is MY child to raise how I see fit.

I would prefer not to have to ask a third time for people not to post replies based on what they percieve as my shortcomings as a mother. Its rude.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Taz, posted 08-16-2007 11:22 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 7:51 AM Dragoness has not yet responded
 Message 38 by Taz, posted 08-17-2007 1:44 PM Dragoness has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 36 of 62 (416652)
08-17-2007 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 2:26 AM


Re: Update
quote:
Again, I ask that this topic be about how you would have or have handled the situation, NOT about how YOU believe I have failed as a parent.

I don't see that Taz has said that you have failed as a parent.

quote:
You do not know my child and have no business telling me to "just let the school handle it" because she is MY child to raise how I see fit.

Sure, that's the way we do it in our culture. And that's a big reason why our populace is the way it is; enormous gaps between those who are good thinkers and those who are good believers, those who are exposed to many ideas and those who are taught to fear ideas, those who are encouraged to accept facts and reality and those who are taught to believe in spite of facts and reality. And I am not just talking about religion here.

Now, please be assured that I am not singling you out or accusing you of any particular thing in the above paragraph. My point is, though, that this idea that American parents have that they sort of own their children and that they are the absolute best person to teach them anything on any subject is just not very useful in the end. I think that this is what Taz was saying.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:26 AM Dragoness has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 11:40 AM nator has not yet responded

    
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 62 (416698)
08-17-2007 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by nator
08-17-2007 7:51 AM


Re: Update
I think the suggestion of 'leave it to the schools' is a recipe for absolute disaster. I think you are doing the right thing, I do think you should be ready for more questions. Stick to your current plan, this is very much what my wife and I have already prepared to do. Be involved.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 7:51 AM nator has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 38 of 62 (416723)
08-17-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 2:26 AM


Re: Update
Dragoness writes:

Again, I ask that this topic be about how you would have or have handled the situation, NOT about how YOU believe I have failed as a parent. I would never dream of sitting here telling you how I think you have failed as a parent, thats just disrespectful.


Now, please, don't misunderstand what I was trying to say.

When you first showed up, you admitted to "believe" in evolution but then demonstrated that you didn't know much about the mechanics behind it. Your husband presented the platypus as "proof" of creationism, and you were stumped. To be honest, anyone who had ever gone through the most basic biology class in high school would have been able to refute the platypus example... if he was paying attention.

You do not know my child and have no business telling me to "just let the school handle it" because she is MY child to raise how I see fit.

By all means, raise your child how you see fit. What I am pointing out is YOU are not the best source of information on science and evolution. YOU are not the best source of information on christianity and god. These are information that are still up for debate.

I know you have good intentions, but think about it for a moment. Would you rather your child get the information from the right sources or would you rather your child get the information from a source that's really not up to answering tough questions?

I am not saying you should just not teach your child anything at all. Parents have a duty to make sure that their children grow up to have a developed sense of conscience and a developed sense of intellect. Encourage her to explore. Encourage her to question. Encourage her to go out and look under the rocks. But as far as the technicalities go... I'd leave them to the experts.

I would prefer not to have to ask a third time for people not to post replies based on what they percieve as my shortcomings as a mother. Its rude.

How on Earth did you get that from my post? Did you even read what I said or did you just glance over it after having read the first sentence?

Anyhow, sorry for the interruption. I'll shut up now.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:26 AM Dragoness has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:42 PM Taz has responded

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 4175 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 39 of 62 (416733)
08-17-2007 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taz
08-17-2007 1:44 PM


Re: Update
quote:
Can't you just let her be a kid rather than putting such heavy weights on her shoulders?

Sorry for all the negative comments. I'm just not convinced a child such as your kid is capable of understanding evolution.

I say let her find out about it in the classroom and if she wants to pursue it she can find out more about it in college.


It was these three statements in particular that i found upsetting. I dont know if you are a parent, but if you are a mother you would KNOW these statemnts about your children will ALWAYS come off as a reflection of your parenting.

"I'm just not convinced that a child such as your kid.."

That says to me that a child such as MINE can't learn this, but others can. Maybe thats not how it was implied, but it IS how it feels.

"Can't I just let her be a kid?"
Sure, but SHE is the one who has initiated these conversations, not me. Part of being a kid is learning. It is offense to be told that I am robbing her of her childhood by educating her when she asks questions.

And letting the school handle things is the same answer thats landed far too many kids on the wrong side of the tracks. Teachers are not the parents of our kids. My childs education is MY responsibilty first and foremost, no way I trust that the schools will teach her all she needs to know in life. Wait till college? Are you serious? What if she doesnt choose college, what if she chooses a trade, military, or God Forbid (pun intended) what if she chooses to simple be a mom like I have done? What then? She enters the real world without a clue? No way.

Just because I am not college eduacated and didn't take a semester of biology does not disqualify me from teaching my children. That in itself is hurtful.

When I joined this site I was told that the scientists scared a lot of Creationsist off. I don't think its the beliefs that scare people, I think its constantly being made to feel stupid for not having the same education. No one wants to stick around where people belittle them for not being "smart enough" to teach their own kids. That is hurtful.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Taz, posted 08-17-2007 1:44 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 08-17-2007 3:25 PM Dragoness has not yet responded
 Message 58 by Taz, posted 08-17-2007 8:11 PM Dragoness has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16357
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 40 of 62 (416740)
08-17-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 2:42 PM


Re: Update
Dragoness writes:

I think its constantly being made to feel stupid for not having the same education.

Nobody can "make" you feel anything. When we feel inadequte in some way, that feeling comes from inside, not outside. Often we get upset when people help us recognize those feelings.

No one wants to stick around where people belittle them for not being "smart enough" to teach their own kids.

I don't believe for a split second that I'm smart enough to teach my own kids - any more than I'm smart enough to take out their tonsils. My job isn't to teach them. It's to make them eager to learn and to help them find a place to learn.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:42 PM Dragoness has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 4:07 PM ringo has responded

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 62 (416746)
08-17-2007 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
08-17-2007 3:25 PM


Re: Update
I am kind of appalled that people seem to think that the 'average parent' isn't qualified to teach their own kids. I have to say that this is a major contributing factor to the poor performance of kids in science. I don't think Dragoness is suggesting she should teach her 5 year old electron dot models or something like that.

Were your child to come to you with a question, are you seriously suggesting you would tell them "I'm not smart enough, wait til you're in school and ask a teacher"? That's fundamentally the most retarded thing I have ever heard. A parent teaches their child everyday, from brushing their teeth to potty-training. There is no reason a parent should restrict their teaching away from science.

Teach your child everything you know and learn with them anything you don't know Dragoness. As far as the denigrations from other member who project their insecurities, simply ignore it and learn from it. Don't be discouraged because others feel they are not up to the task and you will continue to be a great parent.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 08-17-2007 3:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 4:18 PM EighteenDelta has not yet responded
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 08-17-2007 4:32 PM EighteenDelta has responded
 Message 47 by nator, posted 08-17-2007 6:51 PM EighteenDelta has responded

  
Dragoness
Member (Idle past 4175 days)
Posts: 51
From: SLT, CA
Joined: 06-21-2007


Message 42 of 62 (416750)
08-17-2007 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by EighteenDelta
08-17-2007 4:07 PM


Re: Update
Thank you!

I am tired of people telling me how stupid they think I am for teaching my child. People NOT teaching their children things is what has our country in a bind, not the other way around! I will not be punished for being an involved parent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 4:07 PM EighteenDelta has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16357
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 43 of 62 (416751)
08-17-2007 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by EighteenDelta
08-17-2007 4:07 PM


Re: Update
EighteenDelta writes:

Were your child to come to you with a question, are you seriously suggesting you would tell them "I'm not smart enough, wait til you're in school and ask a teacher"?

Nope. We go to the library and we ask the librarian for (at least) two books: one children's book so she can read it for herself and one adult book so I can (hopefully) stay one step ahead of her. Then, by all means, it's "ask your teacher".

As I said, I would no more presume to teach my child about science on my own than I would presume to remove her tonsils on my own. The average parent is definitely not qualified to teach their own kids. We're only qualified to aim them in the right direction.

Edited by Ringo, : Spalling.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 4:07 PM EighteenDelta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 4:50 PM ringo has responded

  
EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 62 (416753)
08-17-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
08-17-2007 4:32 PM


Re: Update
To equate teaching your own child with performing a tonsillectomy(a surprisingly easy procedure) is either disingenuous on your part or an attempt to intentionally misrepresent the subject. Transposing numbers in a math equation or forgetting how protein synthesis works is rarely life threatening under most teaching situations. One does not require classes on pedagogy, nor a degree for that matter, to pass on the information they have. You may continue to not teach your child, but I would ask you not to discourage other who more wisely wish to be involved with their children's education. Both to ensure that any problems are addressed early, such as learning disabilities, and to know what your children are being taught, such as the case of Kitzmiller v. Dover school district.

"oh here's a book" although a great supplement is the quickest way to discourage your child from ever asking questions.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 08-17-2007 4:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 08-17-2007 5:10 PM EighteenDelta has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16357
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 45 of 62 (416758)
08-17-2007 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by EighteenDelta
08-17-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Update
EighteenDelta writes:

One does not require classes on pedagogy, nor a degree for that matter, to pass on the information they have.

I'm talking about information I don't have. Why would I go to the library for information I already had?

You may continue to not teach your child, but I would ask you not to discourage other who more wisely wish to be involved with their children's education.

I'm certainly not discouraging people from being involved in their children's education. I'm discouraging people from going too far on their own.

Both to ensure that any problems are addressed early, such as learning disabilities...

We need professionals to assess those things. Too may learning disabilities get swept under the rug because know-it-all parents insist, "There's nothing wrong with MY child."

... and to know what your children are being taught, such as the case of Kitzmiller v. Dover school district.

Of course we need to know what our children are being taught. I'm saying that we shouldn't pretend we can do the teaching.

"oh here's a book" although a great supplement is the quickest way to discourage your child from ever asking questions.

You're not paying attention. The books are in response to questions (that you claim are being discouraged). The books are an extension of what little I can tell them. The books are a bridge to what their teachers can tell them. The books encourage them to find things out for themselves.

Don't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that people don't care about their children's education just because they don't try to do it all by themselves.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 4:50 PM EighteenDelta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-17-2007 6:40 PM ringo has responded

  
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