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Author Topic:   The Definition for the Theory of Evolution
RAZD
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Posts: 20714
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Message 127 of 216 (413343)
07-30-2007 12:31 PM


A Summary of Sorts.
What I have arrived at so far:
The theory of evolution is that hereditary traits of species change over time, that the change is enabled by the available variations (diversity) within populations due to past accumulations of different mutations in hereditary traits, and that the changes made within each generation are those selected by the differential response of organisms to passing on their hereditary traits under prevailing ecological pressures.
I think that covers the basics.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 143 of 216 (413522)
07-31-2007 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by IamJoseph
07-30-2007 9:25 PM


STILL OFF TOPIC
I dont think it is off topic to render a definition of evolution in a thread of this name.
I don't care what you think.
This thread is not about a definition of evolution but about the definition of the theory of evolution.
This topic is NOT about
Evolution as a process
Evolution occurring on other planets
Evolution being limited by arguments from incredulity
Or anything else YOU fancy to talk about.
This thread is ONLY about the definition of the theory of evolution.
How do I know? I wrote it that way.
Now go start your own thread on what YOU want to talk about and you will find plenty of response to correct your erroneous thinking.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 150 of 216 (413911)
08-01-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Percy
08-01-2007 4:02 PM


New summary theory?
The synthetic theory of evolution, also known as the modern synthesis, arose around the 1920's when the population geneticists demonstrated that Darwin's formulation of evolution as natural selection upon a varied population with imperfect reproduction was precisely what emerged from their genetic models. This brought together the then separate theories of genetics and evolution into a single theory now called the modern synthesis.
This is similar to the "Standard Model" in physics, which is not a single theory so much as a compendium of all current working theories. In this vein (and in keeping with some similar comments by Modulus in Message 11, Message 12 and Message 33) I propose the following:
The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time, how change is enabled by the available variations (diversity) within populations due to the accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits, and how changes made within each generation are selected by the differential response of organisms to passing on their hereditary traits under prevailing ecological pressures and their opportunities to disperse into other ecological habitats.
Trying for a balance between specific and general ... without getting cumbersome?
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 153 of 216 (414052)
08-02-2007 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Cold Foreign Object
08-02-2007 12:09 PM


Natural Selection is NOT the TOPIC
I will not embarrass RAZD by posting his messages that list NS as just another concept on a list thereby giving the impression that NS is ordinary and equal to the other things on his list - SHEESH!
Except you won't embarrass me, just yourself ... Again.
As noted already the modern synthesis theory included mutation as a supply of variation for natural selection to operate on. Without this there would be no real evolution -- no formation of new species.
But that is not all, for evolution is a response mechanism -- it responds to the environment and interspecies pressures. Natural selection without change in the environment OR change in interspecies pressures would produce stasis.
Mutation provides opportunities for selection to operate.
Ecological changes provide opportunities for selection in different directions.
Finally, providing a list does not imply that all items on the list are necessarily of equal value-- that is another logical fallacy for your thinking -- just that they are of SOME value to the entire process (SHEESH indeed).
Now, seeing as Natural Selection IS included in the current running definition of the theory of evolution here, unless you have something else to add to the theory statement that it is missing ... any further discussion of this is off-topic. If you want to pursue it follow Modulus' suggestion and start a new thread.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 156 of 216 (414277)
08-03-2007 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Dr Adequate
08-03-2007 3:16 PM


Adding another element?
Because it's a synthesis, and because it's modern.
One of the elements not included in the original synthesis, and which is now coming to be seen as of some real importance (especially for speciation or rapid change) is the evo-devo area and the effect of environment\hormones on the development and heterochrony of individuals and species. While this may not be necessary in all conditions it does apply to some specific ones (like human neoteny).
Thus the process of development of the individual organisms to sexual maturity can also be critical to the evolutionary process in determining features that are then subject to selection. With this in mind differential development is also an evolutionary factor:
The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, due to the available variations (diversity) within populations from the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected, due to the differential response of organisms under prevailing ecological pressures to their individual development, their ability to pass on hereditary traits to the next generation, and their opportunities to disperse into other ecological habitats.
This is getting cumbersome.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : reworded for clarity
Edited by RAZD, : again
Edited by RAZD, : tweaked again

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 Message 155 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-03-2007 3:16 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 08-04-2007 7:37 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 158 of 216 (414452)
08-04-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
08-04-2007 7:37 AM


Re: Adding another element?
Predictable right at the outset. Brevity and precision are opposites, ...
True, but we now have a sort of hierarchy of brevity vs precision:
(1) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time.
(2) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected.
(3) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, due to the available variations (diversity) within populations from the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected, due to the differential response of organisms under prevailing ecological pressures to their individual development, their ability to pass on hereditary traits to the next generation, and their opportunities to disperse into other ecological habitats.
(4) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes:
  • theories on how change is enabled
    ...(list of theories on different mechanisms for the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits within populations)
  • theories on how changes made within each generation are selected
    ...(list of theories on different mechanisms of selection and where and when they operate)
    ... etc
Now it may be interesting to flesh out #4 with the lists of theories from natural selection to genetic drift to punk-eek to runaway sexual selection ... etc.
But it's a great learning exercise as one often discovers that the topic about which one thought there could be little disagreement among competent individuals actually includes a wide diversity of opinion.
It also demonstrates that evolution is more complicated than many people realize -- especially those with a poor education in evolution, who think that a couple of simple mental "tricks" will disprove it or for those (like MartinV) that think one solution fits all cases.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : second quote & comment
Edited by RAZD, : (3) slight mod
Edited by RAZD, : tweaked again
Edited by RAZD, : format

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 167 of 216 (416663)
08-17-2007 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Ihategod
08-16-2007 11:03 PM


Re: definition of evolution
Welcome to the fray Vashgun
My problem with accepting a definition as broad as: change over time or something akin to that is that it doesn't reflect the true colossal nature of the theory.
Properly speaking you need to define the type of change involved - here we use hereditary genetic change or change in hereditary traits (to differentiate it from change in size etc), and we specify change in breeding populations, species.
The problem with getting more specific is that it gets much more cumbersome in the process. See Message 158 for different levels.
Evolutionist: Evolution is change in species over time.
Me (creationist): I agree
Of course. The argument with creationists is not with evolution per se but with the issue of common ancestors (between which species and how far back).
Message 161
"Evolution has been taking place since life arose."
Nice wording. What about when life was created by a creator and "evolution" is just a variation within a kind.
That's the issue of common ancestors again eh? Please do visit Problems of a different "Kind" and help us define kind though.
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 171 of 216 (416684)
08-17-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Refpunk
08-17-2007 10:00 AM


topic please
Welcome to the fray Refpunk
If evolution were really true, then it wouldn't be hard at all to "define" it.
This thread is not about the definition of evolution, but about the definition of the theory of evolution. A small distinction.
But since it's merely a theory that exists in the imaginations of men,...
This is so for all sciences not just evolution, but we are also talking about a scientific theory based on evidence and not merely a hypothetical concept ...
If you want to discuss either one of these elements further I suggest you open a new thread on the topic -- these are both off topic to this thread.
Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics.
Enjoy.
ps - type [qs]quote boxes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quote boxes are easy
also check out (help) links on formating questions when in the reply window.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Refpunk, posted 08-17-2007 10:00 AM Refpunk has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 172 of 216 (416685)
08-17-2007 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Ihategod
08-17-2007 9:53 AM


getting off topic.
If it can fly it is a bird.
None of this post is about the definition of the theory of evolution, it is off topic.
If you want to discuss this further please open a new topic on it. I'm sure you'll find many happy participants.
Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 177 of 216 (416747)
08-17-2007 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Refpunk
08-17-2007 3:30 PM


Re: topic please
We are still going off-topic here , but we can start with just focusing on what a scientific theory is:
If there were evidence, then it would no longer be a theory, but a fact.
This is a common misconception on the part of the general public, due in part to confusing {scientific theory} with {idea}.
the·o·ry -noun 1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.
The scientific theory definition is #1, while the common definition is either #4 or #6. Notice the significant difference is that the scientific theory explains known facts or phenomena (existing evidence), has been repeatedly tested and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. The Theory of Evolution fits this definition.
In science (all sciences) no theory is proven, rather they are tested for validity based on predictions. Those that fail the tests are invalidated (falsified), but those that pass the tests are then subject to further testing. This means one can never consider a theory proven, just validated by repeated testing. The more the theory is tested and validated the stronger is the evidence that the theory is correct, but it is never considered proven.
But since the "evidence" consists men looking at fossils, skulls and bones and imagining what they could be and how they got that way, then again, it's just a theory as you said, not a fact.
Let's take this to the Evolution is not science. Note that Message 11 discusses the relevance of evidence to theory and the validation of the theory (rather than "proof").
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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to share.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 205 of 216 (417301)
08-20-2007 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by AdminNosy
08-20-2007 3:40 AM


close for topic drift too?
Perhaps close the thread too. There hasn't been a post on topic for some time. I'm happy with the current status of the definition for the theory of evolution:
Message 158
(1) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time.
(2) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected.
(3) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, due to the available variations (diversity) within populations from the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected, due to the differential response of organisms under prevailing ecological pressures to their individual development, their ability to pass on hereditary traits to the next generation, and their opportunities to disperse into other ecological habitats.
(4) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes:
  • theories on how change is enabled
    ...(list of theories on different mechanisms for the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits within populations)
  • theories on how changes made within each generation are selected
    ...(list of theories on different mechanisms of selection and where and when they operate)
    ... etc
Now it may be interesting to flesh out #4 with the lists of theories from natural selection to genetic drift to punk-eek to runaway sexual selection ... etc.
There hasn't been any real discussion of this since.
Thanks.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 213 of 216 (417340)
08-20-2007 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Rob
08-20-2007 10:20 AM


You don't got it!
So can either of you GET on topic? (or go find a room)

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 214 by Admin, posted 08-20-2007 1:26 PM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 215 of 216 (417351)
08-20-2007 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Admin
08-20-2007 1:26 PM


Conclusion
The conclusion is that there is no one overall theory of evolution, but we can arrive at a statement that is a synthesis of numerous tested and validated theories for how evolution happens. This can be stated at different levels of detail as follows:
Message 158
(1) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time.
(2) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected.
(3) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes theories on how change is enabled, due to the available variations (diversity) within populations from the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits, and it includes theories on how changes made within each generation are selected, due to the differential response of organisms under prevailing ecological pressures to their individual development, their ability to pass on hereditary traits to the next generation, and their opportunities to disperse into other ecological habitats.
(4) The modern theory of biological evolution is a synthesis of several validated theories on how species change over time; it includes:
  • theories on how change is enabled
    ...(list of theories on different mechanisms for the formation and accumulation of different mutations in hereditary traits within populations)
  • theories on how changes made within each generation are selected
    ...(list of theories on different mechanisms of selection and where and when they operate)
    ... etc
Now it may be interesting to flesh out #4 with the lists of theories from natural selection to genetic drift to punk-eek to runaway sexual selection ... etc.
Evolution is the change in hereditary traits within populations of species over time, and these theories explain different mechanisms and processes that occur. These theories also explain the existing evidence known from genetics, lab and field studies and the fossil record.
One could say that the overall theory of evolution is that evolution happens, has happened and will continue to happen.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : detail

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