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Author Topic:   Teaching Children Both Sides
Taz
Member (Idle past 3317 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 26 of 62 (414832)
08-06-2007 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dragoness
08-03-2007 3:08 PM


I think the best answer you can give to your child is the often hated "I don't know". Let's admit to ourselves that we are not experts in many of the areas that they ask. Children believe everything you say, and it's not going to do them any good if you give them an answer that is wrong because you don't know any better or (goodness forbids) you made up the answer just to keep up the delusion that you are all-knowing.
For now, I tell my nephews and neices (when they ask questions I know I don't have the authority to speak on) that they'll get their answer when they are older.
I know people get riled up when it comes to educating/indoctrinating their children. The American tradition is the parent can teach his children anything he wants. I say it's time we abandon this tradition and face the ugly truth: that we should keep our mouths shut when it comes to stuff we don't know enough about.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dragoness, posted 08-03-2007 3:08 PM Dragoness has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Doddy, posted 08-16-2007 8:18 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3317 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 29 of 62 (416543)
08-16-2007 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Doddy
08-16-2007 8:18 AM


Doddy writes:
Yes, and it's good to show children the steps in finding out. Get them to look it up online, or ultimately (for some questions, like "Does fire need to breathe air?"), for you to help them work out a way to test it.
I agree.
My attitude to this issue came from the fact that I was spoon fed bullshit by my parents all through childhood. If it wasn't "goddunit", it was something that I later found out to be totally made-up.
Sometimes, I wonder how much of my intellectual and moral development were retarded by the way I was brought up.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Doddy, posted 08-16-2007 8:18 AM Doddy has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3317 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 34 of 62 (416605)
08-16-2007 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Dragoness
08-16-2007 3:49 PM


Re: Update
Dragoness writes:
IN the past weeks my daughter has mentioned more than once that she firmly believes in evolution (today in a discussion about spiders.)And specifically that she does not believe in God.
I wouldn't count on this attitude being permanent.
Let's admit it. The theory of evolution is complicated. Gradualism is complicated. Natural selection, which I personally think is quite simple, is complicated according to the general consensus. "Believing" in evolution is the last thing we want to see in a child... the last thing I want to see in a child. If she can be so easily manipulated to believe one way without actually understanding the how's, what makes you think the other side can't simply pick her up and brainwash her?
However, I will continue to teach both sides.
Can't you just let her be a kid rather than putting such heavy weights on her shoulders?
Bottom line, my daughter is choosing science and evolution and has shown a true interst and learning about it.
One of our former creationist members (her username was Faith) claimed to spend the first 30 years or so of her life "believing" in evolution and science before becoming a born again. While I personally doubted that she really knew anything about science, and sure enough a few conversations I had with her revealed that she didn't know anything about science, I'd have to recognize that she was the opposite version of me.
I grew up being spoon fed the magical "goddunit" as the answer to everything I asked. When I finally matured enough to see through the bullshit, I not only abandoned christianity but also the very concept of god.
It doesn't take that much stretch of an imagination to picture a kid "believing" in science and evolution without really understanding the mechanics behind the concepts and then abandon everything science once a preacher convinces him that we live in a magical world.
Sorry for all the negative comments. I'm just not convinced a child such as your kid is capable of understanding evolution. We already have enough trouble trying to show the creationists on here that natural selection isn't conscious.
I say let her find out about it in the classroom and if she wants to pursue it she can find out more about it in college.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Dragoness, posted 08-16-2007 3:49 PM Dragoness has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:26 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3317 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 38 of 62 (416723)
08-17-2007 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 2:26 AM


Re: Update
Dragoness writes:
Again, I ask that this topic be about how you would have or have handled the situation, NOT about how YOU believe I have failed as a parent. I would never dream of sitting here telling you how I think you have failed as a parent, thats just disrespectful.
Now, please, don't misunderstand what I was trying to say.
When you first showed up, you admitted to "believe" in evolution but then demonstrated that you didn't know much about the mechanics behind it. Your husband presented the platypus as "proof" of creationism, and you were stumped. To be honest, anyone who had ever gone through the most basic biology class in high school would have been able to refute the platypus example... if he was paying attention.
You do not know my child and have no business telling me to "just let the school handle it" because she is MY child to raise how I see fit.
By all means, raise your child how you see fit. What I am pointing out is YOU are not the best source of information on science and evolution. YOU are not the best source of information on christianity and god. These are information that are still up for debate.
I know you have good intentions, but think about it for a moment. Would you rather your child get the information from the right sources or would you rather your child get the information from a source that's really not up to answering tough questions?
I am not saying you should just not teach your child anything at all. Parents have a duty to make sure that their children grow up to have a developed sense of conscience and a developed sense of intellect. Encourage her to explore. Encourage her to question. Encourage her to go out and look under the rocks. But as far as the technicalities go... I'd leave them to the experts.
I would prefer not to have to ask a third time for people not to post replies based on what they percieve as my shortcomings as a mother. Its rude.
How on Earth did you get that from my post? Did you even read what I said or did you just glance over it after having read the first sentence?
Anyhow, sorry for the interruption. I'll shut up now.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:26 AM Dragoness has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:42 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3317 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 58 of 62 (416787)
08-17-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dragoness
08-17-2007 2:42 PM


Re: Update
Going backward.
Dragoness writes:
When I joined this site I was told that the scientists scared a lot of Creationsist off. I don't think its the beliefs that scare people, I think its constantly being made to feel stupid for not having the same education. No one wants to stick around where people belittle them for not being "smart enough" to teach their own kids. That is hurtful.
I am certainly not belittling you. For now, I do not have any kid of my own, although the wife and I are applying to adopt. I can tell you that I will not be qualified to answer many of the questions they will have. I got my degree in physics and math. I majored in biology so I have a little bit of background in it. I know next to nothing about geology and the various other fields that are out there. So, while I can answer technical questions in math and physics and a little bit in biology, I certainly can't answer any in geology or poetry or psychology. I tend to refrain myself from having an opinion in those areas.
What I definitely have to offer to my children-to-be is an informed view on morality, tolerance, and a way to critically approach an issue with a rational mindset.
Just because I am not college eduacated and didn't take a semester of biology does not disqualify me from teaching my children. That in itself is hurtful.
You misunderstood me. You are certainly qualified to teach your children how to be decent human beings (I hope). You are certainly qualified to teach your children subjects that you are very well knowledgable in. But ask yourself this question. How would it help your child to understand science if someone approaches her with the platypus example as proof of creationism and you can't refute it?
Gee, mommy knew a lot about evolution and she couldn't even refute this, so evolution must be false.
And letting the school handle things is the same answer thats landed far too many kids on the wrong side of the tracks.
Well, now you're just thinking about irresponsible parents that don't talk to their kids at all. That's not what I am advocating. I am advocating we teach our children how to develop their sense of morality, their sense of intellectual approach, and their sense of human reason. But if we aren't experts in certain facts, it's best that we leave it to the real experts to provide the answers.
Teachers are not the parents of our kids. My childs education is MY responsibilty first and foremost, no way I trust that the schools will teach her all she needs to know in life.
And in no way have I indicated that we should leave the schools to teach everything our children need to know in life.
Wait till college? Are you serious? What if she doesnt choose college, what if she chooses a trade, military, or God Forbid (pun intended) what if she chooses to simple be a mom like I have done? What then? She enters the real world without a clue? No way.
If she chooses not to go to college, then at least we can hope for her to know her limitations and be humble about what she knows and what she does not know.
If there's one thing I've learned in my life experiences, it's that there are just subjects that I shouldn't be allowed to speak authoritatively on. I have many nieces and nephews, all from the ages of 0 to 9, and what I have noticed personally is that they pretty much believe everything we tell them. One time I accidently told my 6 year old nephew that there was a dragon in the church, and for the next year every sunday he would be looking for the dragon after church service.
But that aside, be assured that I am not saying you shouldn't teach your kids anything. I am saying that we as adults should foremost be aware of our limitations and try not to give false or deceptive answers to our children.
That says to me that a child such as MINE can't learn this, but others can. Maybe thats not how it was implied, but it IS how it feels.
No, that just means kids like yours shouldn't be burdened too much with this kind of issue. We have full grown adults here who just can't understand the concept of natural selection. We have full grown adults here who doesn't believe in evolution yet believe wholeheartedly that Noah was able to keep alive 2 representatives of every land dwelling species on Earth for a whole year inside his ark. we have full grown adults here who believe wholeheartedly that kankaroos somehow swam for thousands of miles over open ocean from the middle east to where they are now.
Sure, teach your kid to be rational. But isn't it too early to motivate her to dig into this issue? Are you sure you have adequate knowledge to answer her questions? In my case, I'd been having to say "I don't know" to many of the questions my nieces and nephews have for me. I certainly know I'm not qualified to teach them about rocks.
It was these three statements in particular that i found upsetting. I dont know if you are a parent, but if you are a mother you would KNOW these statemnts about your children will ALWAYS come off as a reflection of your parenting.
Yes, I realize that. I'm sorry that I have upset you, but please read what I said again. Evolution is a complicated subject. So is quantum mechanics. Just because I have a degree in physics doesn't mean I will expect my 10 or 15 year old to understand it. And if he wouldn't understand it, doesn't mean I'm a bad parent.
I think there are better ways to see a part of ourselves in our kids other than how they understand (or not understand) certain subjects, especially subjects we're not familiar with.
Going back to evolution, I have been a long time advocate of not teaching the theory in high school. That's right, I don't think most high school kids are mature enough to understand this theory. This is why anti-evolutionism and creationism are so popular among teens.
But anyway, sorry to have dipped my nose into this matter. You asked for opinion and I gave mine. Please understand that I have not nor will I ever belittle you. I am more educated in evolutionary biology. I'm pretty sure you are more educated on other subjects. And if this makes you feel better, compared to many people here, I am not very bright as well as not very educated. At best, I can wiggle my ears as a last resort to impress people.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 2:42 PM Dragoness has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dragoness, posted 08-17-2007 8:16 PM Taz has not replied

  
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