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Author Topic:   "Sudden Origins" by Jeffery H Schwartz
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 16 of 18 (409470)
07-09-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object
07-09-2007 3:18 PM


Cold Foreign Object writes:
As I said in Message 51 of the Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links" thread, "He is an example of the worst kind of scientist one can imagine, one who just like creationists lets his ideas about the way the world must be govern his acceptance and interpretation of evidence."
So evolutionists have the magical ability to leave their bias, worldviews and preconceptions at the lab door and everyone else does not?
Surely that is not your point?
Yes, you are correct, that is not my point. Schwartz is continuing to argue a point that genetic analysis settled a while ago, and he arguing it not from evidence but just because he won't give up his pet view that brought him professional fame back in the 1990's. What he's doing is like continuing to argue for a flat earth in an era of moon landings. Not quite so dramatic, perhaps, but you get the idea.
I was under the belief that anyone can contribute to mainstream journals as long as they have credentials.
No, of course not. There's peer review. After a paper has been accepted for consideration by editors, legitimate technical journals send it out to as few as 2 and as many as 5 peer reviewers (scientists from the same field), who remain anonymous to the paper's authors. Based upon the results of the peer review the paper is either accepted, accepted provisionally based upon whether requested changes are made in a satisfactory manner, or rejected.
Are you saying that in addition to credentials a person must promote the majority view?
No, of course not. A paper must meet certain standards and criteria, which is why I stated that Schwartz's paper doesn't meet the normal standards for a professional technical paper. Foremost among these standards is that the paper must be based upon sound evidence and reasoning. Schwartz has only circumstantial evidence for his views in the form of phenotypal observations, while the rather conclusive genetic evidence says he's dead wrong, and he tries to overcome this through transparently bad reasoning and mischaracterization of the nature of existing evidence. Legitimate journals will not consider papers that combine poor evidence with poor reasoning and outright misrepresentations. That's why he has to carry out his attacks on molecular clocks in obscure journals.
Are you saying that Schwartz has become a crackpot? Is John Davison a crackpot?
Yes and yes. Of course! Indubitably! Without a doubt! Count on it! For sure! You betcha!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-09-2007 3:18 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 17 of 18 (415547)
08-10-2007 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Percy
06-12-2007 9:28 PM


next installment
The close of Schwartz's Message 39 ... sums up where he's probably going in his book: Darwinism "is not a viable model for the origin/emergence of novelty."
I am now at the point where Punk-eek is being incorporated into the mix of evolutionary thought, having passed through his take on the modern synthesis.
A conclusion that I have come to is that what he means by "Darwinism" is solely long term gradualistic, if not uniformitarian, change. You can see this in the message you linked as well:
Message 39
As for criticizing Darwinian emphases on constant and gradual change, while the quote from Darwin indicates that he recognized that there could be stasis, it is obvious from the total corpus of his writing that he believed this to be a minor case. If one reads the fundamental monographs underlying the evolutionary synthesis by Fisher, Morgan, and then Dobzhansky (2nd ed) and Mayr, gradualism is the major tempo, with accumulated small change the scenario.
Thus if all he is saying is that long term uniformitarian mutation and selection is not sufficient to explain all the diversity of life as we know it, then this is nothing new (now - it may have been when the book was written 8 years ago). If he is saying that long term uniformitarian mutation and selection is not sufficient to explain any of the diversity of life as we know it, then this is debatable. According to the original post on the linked thread this latter position seems to be the case:
Message 1
... Schwartz, ... is working to debunk a major tenet of Darwinian evolution. Schwartz believes that evolutionary changes occur suddenly as opposed to the Darwinian model of evolution, which is characterized by gradual and constant change.
Where presumably "evolutionary changes" are bigger changes than those produced by normal mutation and selection.
In this book ("Sudden Origins") I've also gained the impression that where he is heading is emphasizing evo-devo and relegating molecular and population genetics to a subsidiary role. This is also hinted at in his post #39:
With regard to those of you who are interested in the increasingly influential field of evolutionary developmental biology (perhaps some of you may know it as "evo-devo"), I direct you to publications by Gerd Mller (director of the KLI), Stuart Newman, Massimo Pigluicci, Gnter Wagner et al, who are among the leaders in what is clearly an intellectual shift from Darwinism ...
Haven't gotten to the chapters\sections on HOX genes yet, so I can't say for sure where he is going, but once again in his review of the modern synthesis sections he discussed several competing theories and people that argued for more saltational levels of change (Goldschmidt, Schindewolf, Williams).
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 06-12-2007 9:28 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 18 (416876)
08-18-2007 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
08-10-2007 6:24 PM


finished
Well I've finally finished it, and I am less than impressed.
Chapter 11 goes into HOX genes and waxes eloquent on the large amount of change that a little change to a HOX gene can accomplish. He goes to great lengths to discuss the amount of change that can occur by disrupting HOX gene expression, most of which is just addition or deletion of digits ... significant change, yes, but not radical.
Chapter 12 is where he goes off the deep end. Specifically he equates the loss of a fully evolved HOX gene complex together with the cascade of orchestrated elements needed for the production and assembly of features ... to the development of that HOX gene by one mutation. He specifically dismisses the argument Dawkins makes on eye evolution and ignores the evidence of intermediates. He suggests that eyes evolved fully developed, because when you destroy one specific HOX gene in a population that any homozygous individual is sightless -- no eye and no eye socket. He goes on to propose that other "novel" features are likewise developed whole by single HOX mutations.
Chapters 1 to 11 may be considered useful, however I wouldn't recommend the book to anyone on their basis as the organization is rather haphazard and tends to confuse by jumping back and forth.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 08-10-2007 6:24 PM RAZD has not replied

  
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