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Author Topic:   Biblical Coherency (Rob and Iceage Only)
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 3 of 30 (417029)
08-19-2007 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNem
08-19-2007 12:39 AM


Hi NJ... Iceage left out something important in his request... www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=712&m=82#83 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=712&m=82#83">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=712&m=82#83

I specifically agreed to a great debate between Iceage and myself only. I can't adress an issue such as this with the mob ready to question every step. It's Iceage and I so that we can stay on the points, or no deal...

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNem, posted 08-19-2007 12:39 AM AdminNem has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 2:09 AM Rob has responded
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-19-2007 8:54 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 4 of 30 (417032)
08-19-2007 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
08-18-2007 11:20 PM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 11:20 PM iceage has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 6 of 30 (417037)
08-19-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by iceage
08-19-2007 2:09 AM


Iceage:
Nevertheless, fine i guess, but not my preference.

Very well then...

Moderator, do you have the technology to translate this into a smaller arena?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 2:09 AM iceage has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 11 of 30 (417074)
08-19-2007 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
08-18-2007 11:20 PM


Iceage, your entire premise of contradiction depends upon a presupposition; that Life is only physical, and that within that life, justice and mercy must cohere. It is a 'time' issue also... You may ask, 'where is the justice for a child caught in the crossfire of his father's crime?'

Iceage:

If God is outraged over acts of mercy extended to the enemies of his people, just how does this fit with God's other command of loving your enemies.

It does appear that for justice to be just, it must be uncompromising.

Ezekiel 18:4
For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Notice God is talking about the soul. Not the flesh...

All flesh will die, but not all souls will die, and it is in this eternal reality that the proper context is found.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

But justice to the guilty is only out of mercy for the victim. It is the victemization that makes it truely wrong. You're equating physical death with justice. And you cannot understand why innocents die. Who says they do in the ultimate sense?

There is a resurrection to be had. Nothing will bring them back whether they deserved to live or not, except the ressurection. Without it, there is no justice.

If you want to see the resolution to the problem you must look at the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. That is where all of these realites converge.

On the cross you have absolute (eternal) justice being carried out. But in [time], it is the most unjust thing that can be.
You have absolute (eternal) mercy being given. But in time, it is the most unmerciful thing that can be.

The resurrection resolves the dispute between whether life is ultimately physical or spiritual. It is the emperical evidence of the spiritual reality and coheres the two...

In the short term, these historical events seem foolish and contradictory. But in the long run, God restores all things.

It has been done.

Jesus was crucified. He rose from the dead.

What more proof of eternity, God's absolute justice, and His absolute mercy could you ask for?

He paid for your sins, so that justice was met, but that you may live.

If you owed a huge court fine that was not within your ability to pay, and it was paid without cost to you, by someone else. Justice was still met. Whether the lesson was learned depends upon the severity of the sacrifice.

What if you deserved the death of your soul? What if your friend actually died for you, so that you could live?

What if his physical life was so powerful, that it was equal to the life of your own soul?

It's strange really... you demand an accounting of justice and mercy in the here and now. But then it is gone...

All of this will be gone. The sun will burn out, though the moon's deteriorating orbit will likely destroy us first. And even if that is averted by some as yet fictional strategy, the inevitable heat death and entropic decay of our universe will ensue.

And then what will become of justice and mercy Iceage?

As Konrad Adenauer,the former German Cancellor said to Billy Graham durring the aftermath of World War II, “Outside of the resurrection of Jesus Christ I know no other hope for mankind”.

He had just finished asking Billy if he really believed in the resurrection. Billy said, 'Chancellor, it I did not belive in the ressurection of Jesus Christ, I would have no Gospel to preach".

And both of these men realize iceage, that if the resurection is not reality (God), then it is utterly futile.

The Apostle Paul did as well:

1 Corinthians 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God (reality), for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

So, what Paul is saying is that if we believe in the resurrection and it is (in reality) not true... then we are the most foolish people on the face of the earth.

So, knowing that... why believe that there is justice of any kind other than in God's hands?

If justice and mercy are not in the hands of reality, then what is the point of your question?

De 32:35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them.

Isa 61:8 "For I, the Lord, love justice; I hate robbery and iniquity. In my faithfulness I will reward them and make an everlasting covenant with them.

Re 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

What reward do you deserve iceage?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iceage, posted 08-18-2007 11:20 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 8:52 PM Rob has responded
 Message 13 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 9:03 PM Rob has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 14 of 30 (417227)
08-19-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by iceage
08-19-2007 9:03 PM


Iceage:
You are a stones throw away from a Biblical version of radical Islamic Suicide Bombing theology. To summarize: It is ok to kill innocents because God will make all things right in the after life.

Who says it's ok?

It is not ok...

God never said it was...

He said just the opposite...

What God does understand, and so do you...

Is that defiance in spite of terms of peace offered by the assaulting party, require the storming of a stronghold to exterminate the utterly defiant...

This often results in callateral damage...

But the alternative...

Is to allow the defiant to overthrow order without (our burden) care for any of your questions.

God will set things right, because justice is a reality that we don't have to take by force as a terrorist would do...

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

Do you really believe that these ancient nations were just hip village people smoking dope at the plaza and wanting to all get along?

Do you really believe?

Do you really?

That it is the same thing?

If so, we have nothing to discuss...

For your defiance...

Blinds your eyes from reasonable discussion............

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 9:03 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 2:14 AM Rob has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 15 of 30 (417228)
08-19-2007 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by iceage
08-19-2007 8:52 PM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Iceage:
I am asking does the above present a contradiction of thought and outlook.

No, it sure doesn't...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by iceage, posted 08-19-2007 8:52 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 1:49 AM Rob has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 18 of 30 (417320)
08-20-2007 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by iceage
08-20-2007 1:49 AM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Iceage:
They are incompatible notions.

In the words of the Greek Philosopher Aristotle: "one cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time"

Very good Iceage, but isn't that the law of non contradiction? I think Aristotle actually put it differently.

Nonetheless, I think it is marvelous that you believe in the law of non-contradiction. So we can proceed...

Look at the last seven words in the quote you gave and study them. You're quite right, you cannot do those things in the same respect, and in the same time. But you can do them both without contradiction while remaining just and good at all times.

You don't just go out and kill and God never suggested such a thing. You love your enemy. You offer terms of peace. Give him an opportunity to be reasonable. Explain yourself to him. Show him that there is a bigger picture to consider. Show him that God loves him.

But if to the bitter end, they insist on killing you (which is unloving on thier part) you do not hold back your sword when the time comes.

And there is also the spiritual overtones...

The sword signifies 'the truth' (logic) and the blood signifies the flesh.

It's not complicated.

So when you read the following, notice that it does not say, 'at the same time'.

Ecclesiastes 3:1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: 2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, 3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, 4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, 5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, 6 a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, 7 a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, 8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 1:49 AM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 9:49 PM Rob has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 20 of 30 (417439)
08-21-2007 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by iceage
08-20-2007 9:49 PM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Iceage:
Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world and if it was his servants would be fighting.

Fighting to prevent what specific event in time?

His arrest!

You don't really think Jesus is a pacifist do you?

He offered his own life as a sacrifice for the sin of all mankind.

IT WAS A BLOODBATH!

Blood must be spilt to atone for sin. Would you have preferred it be your own as it was in the old covenant?

You still have that option you know?

Revelation 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great." 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

That's some pacifist!

The same law is at work in both covenants. The same God. But He had to come into 'time' Iceage. He had to redeem 'sinful man' and sinful flesh. So He came not as God, but as man. His mission was death. And he did not hold back His own sword against Himself. He put to death His flesh, so that we don't have to...

But we still have to fight from time to time...

The most powerful force in the universe is logic. The only thing that can stop it is deliberate denial and blasphemy of it. And in such a state of being, the soul must die. And the tool that will do it is the very Word of God. In the end, when you have exhausted yourself and your time is no more, you will fall into the hands of reality.

Trust me... you're not ready!

Jesus faced His own sword so that you and I do not have to. He held back no blood or sword. Take the offer...

As Mr. Beaver said to the childs question about Aslan (Jesus), 'Is he safe?' (Lewis, 'the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe')

[b]'Safe? ... Safe? No He's not safe ... but he is good!'

So Iceage... forgive me for sayng this, oh wise master of your own illogical kingdom and jester in reality's court; in the case of His arrest... to avoid his purpose for coming would have been sin.

In this time laden moment, yes... do not fight. Even Peter (who pulled his sword at that moment) didn't understand until later.

'There is a time, for every season, under heaven'...

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by iceage, posted 08-20-2007 9:49 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 08-21-2007 4:57 AM Rob has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 22 of 30 (417477)
08-21-2007 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by iceage
08-21-2007 4:57 AM


Re: Answering the wrong question.
Iceage:
Is there a time for child rape? slavery? murder? Do these things contradict love?

Child rape? Where'd that come from?

Do you mean, 'does not allowing a former diseased and virus laden member of a society to continue on that path, and instead re-habilitating them contradict love'?

These people you refer to were little more than animals. Debauched and inscrupulous cultures where these practices you denounce were common. They were insanely religious, even sacrificing their own testicles to fertility gods in some cases.

Even today, in parts of the Middle East the population is kept in check only by fear and intimidation.

It takes a lot of love to give someone programmed and damaged, by that kind of dysfunctional system, the chance to understand. And it takes a lot of time for them to understand what their life is all about.

As for Isreal's own, they had no excuse. At least the others were relatively ignorant. God will restore those who are innocent...

As soon as we create a creature who has the power to choose -minus- omnipotence... we set up a situation where that creature may choose not to trust our judgement and begin to think of himself first and his short term desire.

Therefore he will get out of what he calls his cage if we let him. It is up to us to take responsibility, and sometimes wipe out whole communities to keep the 'total organism' within our control.

He is confused by our position. He does not know what he is doing. And he does not know that we will rebuild him and restore all things giving him the benefit of hindsight.

He is too busy trying to get out of his cage.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 08-21-2007 4:57 AM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by iceage, posted 08-21-2007 10:12 AM Rob has not yet responded
 Message 24 by iceage, posted 08-25-2007 11:27 PM Rob has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 25 of 30 (418035)
08-25-2007 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by iceage
08-25-2007 11:27 PM


Re: Request for Moderation Action
Iceage your assertions are utterly rediculous. I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers. You've already decided long ago what the answer is. I knew that going in...

I only agreed to the debate as a great debate. The Admins agreed. If you want to start a new thread on the basis of my responses you're free to do so. But I won't be participating in my own funeral. Have your bloody feast without me. I already have a sacrifice for my sins.

I would just assume leave this open as it stands; a place for you and I to hash out any future disagreements one on one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by iceage, posted 08-25-2007 11:27 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by iceage, posted 08-26-2007 8:34 PM Rob has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 27 of 30 (418410)
08-28-2007 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by iceage
08-26-2007 8:34 PM


Re: Holy Genocide
Bless you Iceage. Jesus loves you. I'll pray for you even more than I already do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by iceage, posted 08-26-2007 8:34 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by iceage, posted 08-30-2007 3:00 PM Rob has not yet responded

  
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