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Author Topic:   Biblical Coherency (Rob and Iceage Only)
iceage 
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From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 1 of 30 (416991)
08-18-2007 11:20 PM


In another thread Rob writes

"I invite you to put the God of the bible on trial and find a contradiction..."

In the Bible there are numerous technical mistakes, copyist errors, logical contradictions, numerical inconsistencies, redactions, philosophical incoherencies, etc.

Rob expressed willingness to discuss this issue further and demonstrate that these are realy just "paradoxes".

For the sake of clarity and focus I would like to discuss a single issue in this topic.



How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?


Some miscellaneous random specifics to illustrate the point:

Direct commanded by Moses God's prophet...

Exodus 32 writes:

Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.

Heads on pikes displayed for the Lord ... yikes!

Numbers 25 writes:

And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'

Keep the virgins for yourselves (not the kind of love Jesus was implying)

Numbers 31 writes:

Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Slavery or Death and rape (For God's sake keep the plunder which specifically includes women)

Deuteronomy 20 writes:

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Little children are not be spared.. no mercy no pity let alone love.

Ezekiel 9:5-7 writes:

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

Curses indeed...

Jeremiah 48 writes:

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.

And just to further underscore this point there are a few places where the Hebrew leaders accorded a measure of mercy to their enemies only to incite outrage by God and we are informed that this God will destroy those who show mercy to their enemies. For example Saul spares the life of Agag and Samuel curses Saul

1 Samuel 15 writes:

But Saul and the people spared Agag...The word of the Lord came to Samuel: 'I repent that I have made Saul king; for he has turned back from following me, and has not performed my commandments...

Samuel informs Saul that God had commanded the genocide

1 Samuel 15 writes:

And the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, 'Go, utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed...Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you from being king.

Now Samuel being a Holy Hit Man shows Saul just what God had in mind

1 Samuel 15 writes:

Then Samuel said, 'Bring here to me Agag the king of the Amalekites...And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal

There are other instances where God's alleged orders for complete Genocide was not carried out, invoking God wrath.

If God is outraged over acts of mercy extended to the enemies of his people, just how does this fit with God's other command of loving your enemies.

Note I don't want a Great Debate as I don't have the time and appreciate the input of others and am not here to win or show someone up but to learn and mix thought with thought

Edited by AdminPD, : Names added to title.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 2:05 AM iceage has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 10:57 AM iceage has responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 5 of 30 (417035)
08-19-2007 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rob
08-19-2007 2:01 AM


Whose to say there won't be a mob ready to support you? I would really like to hear other Christian's thoughts on this - for example folks like Ana, Phat, NJ, PDawn, pbee and Buzz.

Nevertheless, fine i guess, but not my preference.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 2:01 AM Rob has responded

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 10 of 30 (417064)
08-19-2007 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by macaroniandcheese
08-19-2007 8:54 AM


brennakimi writes:

how exactly do you put anyone on trial without questioning every step

Thank you. I see no purpose in a "Great Debate". It is about the issues and ideas - not Rob and Iceage, but here we are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-19-2007 8:54 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 12 of 30 (417185)
08-19-2007 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rob
08-19-2007 10:57 AM


Answering the wrong question.
Rob writes:

Iceage, your entire premise of contradiction depends upon a presupposition; that Life is only physical, and that within that life, justice and mercy must cohere. It is a 'time' issue also... You may ask, 'where is the justice for a child caught in the crossfire of his father's crime?'

Rob thanks for your post. However it answered the wrong question and avoided the topic. You answered the question "Why is there apparent injustice in this world" or "Why does God appear to be unmerciful at times in this world".

I will repost the topic...

Iceage writes:

How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?

Therefore I ask again is the Bible coherent by teaching....



  • Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

  • Do not use force against an evil man

  • In everything do to others as you would have them do to you

  • Do not return evil for evil

  • Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you


    and also then also command and teach by example...



  • Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood

  • Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel

  • Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor

  • Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves

    Is this a coherent? Is there an unavoidable contradiction in philosophy presented?

    Rob writes:

    You demand an accounting of justice and mercy in the here and now

    No. I am not asking about justice or mercy. I am asking does the above present a contradiction of thought and outlook.


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 10:57 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 11:44 PM iceage has responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
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    From: Pacific Northwest
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    Message 13 of 30 (417187)
    08-19-2007 9:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Rob
    08-19-2007 10:57 AM


    Post 12 is the primary thrust of this topic. However I must make short comment on your off topic material in Post 11.

    Rob writes:

    You're equating physical death with justice. And you cannot understand why innocents die...

    In the short term, these historical events seem foolish and contradictory. But in the long run, God restores all things...

    why believe that there is justice of any kind other than in God's hands

    You are a stones throw away from a Biblical version of radical Islamic Suicide Bombing theology. To summarize: It is ok to kill innocents because God will make all things right in the after life.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 10:57 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
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    From: Pacific Northwest
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    Message 16 of 30 (417274)
    08-20-2007 1:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 15 by Rob
    08-19-2007 11:44 PM


    Re: Answering the wrong question.
    Rob writes:

    No, it sure doesn't...

    Dude this is the Great Debate that you wanted and all you have is "No, it sure doesn't"

    Note, I don't fault you for not having any defense or rational explanations. There really is no reconciliation of

    quote:
    Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you

    with...

    quote:
    Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood

    They are incompatible notions.

    In the words of the Greek Philosopher Aristotle: "one cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time"


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by Rob, posted 08-19-2007 11:44 PM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 18 by Rob, posted 08-20-2007 9:30 AM iceage has responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
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    Message 17 of 30 (417285)
    08-20-2007 2:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Rob
    08-19-2007 11:38 PM


    Stop the blather.
    Your post is a series of unrelated muddled sentence fragments?

    Rob writes:

    Is that defiance in spite of terms of peace offered by the assaulting party, require the storming of a stronghold to exterminate the utterly defiant...

    Just what are you referring to? I cannot respond to gibberish. You are missing a subject.

    This often results in callateral damage...

    Are the taking of women and virgin girls collateral damage?

    Rob writes:

    Do you really believe that these ancient nations were just hip village people smoking dope at the plaza and wanting to all get along?

    Jesus's comments come from within the context of Roman domination. Did you think that the Romans were village people smoking dope?

    The various quotes I supplied come from various contexts.

    Rob writes:

    Do you really believe?

    Do you really?

    That it is the same thing?

    If so, we have nothing to discuss...

    Huh? this is blather

    Rob writes:

    For your defiance...

    Blinds your eyes from reasonable discussion............

    Blather, fragments and spittle.

    If you continue with responses of this nature and quality, I would like to request that we open this topic up for others.

    To be honest I would rather lose this debate and gain some understanding.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
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    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
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    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 19 of 30 (417409)
    08-20-2007 9:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 18 by Rob
    08-20-2007 9:30 AM


    Re: Answering the wrong question.
    Rob writes:

    I think it is marvelous that you believe in the law of non-contradiction.

    Ya... I put that in there because I knew it would engage you and you needed some rejuvenation :)

    Rob writes:

    in the same respect, and in the same time

    But aren't some of God's top level ethical laws atemporal and absolute?

    Is there a time and place for Rape? even Child Rape? Slavery? Placing your enemies heads on pikes? Is there a time and place to be blessed by dashing your enemies babies on the rocks?

    Rob writes:

    You don't just go out and kill and God never suggested such a thing. You love your enemy.

    Rob read the text. This warlord god does not just offer killing as a possible suggestion but directly *commands killing*. This comment of yours demonstrates your direct avoidance of the material.

    "Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."

    The work of this lord includes the wetting of the sword with the blood of your enemies.

    Rob writes:

    You love your enemy.

    Not in the OT. There is *no love* in the taking of women and little girls captive. There is *no love* in hewing your enemy to pieces. You don't love your neighbor or enemy by enslavement.

    Rob writes:

    You offer terms of peace. Give him an opportunity to be reasonable. Explain yourself to him. Show him that there is a bigger picture to consider. Show him that God loves him.

    What????? I provided several examples (and a limited set) from various contexts including conquest and domestic. There are direct orders to kill your (Hebrew) neighbor, friend and brother.

    In the specific context, I am guessing you are referring to is Deuteronomy 20. The peace offer was slavery and servitude. This was conquest, the taking of the lands of Canaan. Go read it in context "As you approach a town to attack it". It was not "say fellows if you let us in, we would like to talk to you guys about God, love and the big picture". The offer was slavery OR death and the rape of your women. This is not big picture love.

    You are not approaching these passages honestly but purposefully and willfully white-washing the content.

    Rob writes:

    And there is also the spiritual overtones...

    The sword signifies 'the truth' (logic) and the blood signifies the flesh.

    Utter whitewashed putrid new-age bullshit!

    Duet 32 writes:

    I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

    Ezekiel 5 writes:

    Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers

    Perhaps you can parse the spiritual content in the above passages for us?

    Rob writes:

    So when you read the following, notice that it does not say, 'at the same time'

    Jesus's passage about loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, do not repay evil with evil, pray for those who curse you, are not situational or temporal commands. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world and if it was his servants would be fighting.

    The foundational ethics of the old testament and new testament are far apart, distinct and in contradiction to each other.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 18 by Rob, posted 08-20-2007 9:30 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 2:26 AM iceage has responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 21 of 30 (417451)
    08-21-2007 4:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Rob
    08-21-2007 2:26 AM


    Re: Answering the wrong question.
    You insist on veering way off topic!!!!

    This is not some area where you can just launch off into a jeering word salad non-sequitur preaching session. Like a drunken monkey leaping from tree to tree you leap from idea to idea hoping one will make sense and connect with the topic and the prior comment.

    The topic is


    How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?

    The OT did not preach or teach loving your enemy. I provided many examples, such as the taking of women as booty, direct orders to kill your neighbor and the displaying of the heads of the enemy in the sun (to please the warlord god).

    The NT preached loving of your neighbor and enemy and not returning evil for evil.

    The God of the OT is fundamentally different and incoherent to the God (Jesus) of the NT.

    Your prior comments are false. Lets review...

    Rob writes:

    You don't just go out and kill and God never suggested such a thing. You love your enemy. You offer terms of peace. Give him an opportunity to be reasonable. Explain yourself to him. Show him that there is a bigger picture to consider. Show him that God loves him.

    That is demonstratively false. I provided evidence. Here is some more

    Ezekiel 9 writes:

    Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.

    And then you say....

    Rob writes:

    And there is also the spiritual overtones...

    The sword signifies 'the truth' (logic) and the blood signifies the flesh.

    That is absurd.

    In your last post the only thought I could find that might pertain to the topic is:

    Rob writes:


    In this time laden moment, yes... do not fight. Even Peter (who pulled his sword at that moment) didn't understand until later.

    Are you saying that the commands to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you was for that "time laden moment" only?

    Rob writes:

    'There is a time, for every season, under heaven'...

    Is there a time for child rape? slavery? murder? Do these things contradict love?

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 2:26 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 22 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 9:53 AM iceage has responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 23 of 30 (417479)
    08-21-2007 10:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Rob
    08-21-2007 9:53 AM


    Re: Answering the wrong question.
    You continue to avoid the main topic and look for side alleys to venture down.

    Why do you not address the main topic?

    The topic is


    How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?

    Rob writes:

    Child rape? Where'd that come from?

    Let's read the scripture....

    Numbers 31 writes:

    Now kill all the boys... but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    I am sure these girls will be sent off to finishing school.

    Rob writes:

    As soon as we create a creature who has the power to choose -minus- omnipotence... we set up a situation where that creature may choose not to trust our judgement and begin to think of himself first and his short term desire.

    Therefore he will get out of what he calls his cage if we let him. It is up to us to take responsibility, and sometimes wipe out whole communities to keep the 'total organism' within our control.

    He is confused by our position. He does not know what he is doing. And he does not know that we will rebuild him and restore all things giving him the benefit of hindsight.

    He is too busy trying to get out of his cage.

    I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 9:53 AM Rob has not yet responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 24 of 30 (418031)
    08-25-2007 11:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 22 by Rob
    08-21-2007 9:53 AM


    Request for Moderation Action
    Since this thread has been abandoned by Rob, even though it was on his insistence this be a Great Debate, I would like to request this thread be opened for others.

    I believe that Rob abandoned for good reasons. Certainly not my debating skills, but because justifying the OT Godly directed genocide stories with the "Love Your Neighbor" command is indefensible. However, if possible, I would like to open this thread up to see if any others fair better.

    In the end Rob even advocated genocide as necessary and responsible:

    Rob writes:

    It is up to us to take responsibility, and sometimes wipe out whole communities to keep the 'total organism' within our control.

    Yikes! glad the Christian theist are no longer in control.

    Those who blasphemously worship the bible itself and their "faith" requires that the Bible be considered as a whole divinely inspired work of the creator, this specific ethical contradiction is the best antidote to that notion. Other contradictions like Matthew misquoting and misreferencing the OT and gemological errors are trivial by comparison. The wide gaping disparity between godly commanded genocide and loving your neighbor is too wide to justify honestly or rationally.

    As an aside, I believe the chief value of the Bible is the documentation of the evolution or transformation of human ethics, such as:

    Love your tribal neighbor -> Love your non-tribal neighbor -> Love your enemy.

    These evolved ethical concepts are not necessarily unique or innovated by the biblical writers but they are revealed within a unified context and clearly and forcefully presented.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 22 by Rob, posted 08-21-2007 9:53 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by Rob, posted 08-25-2007 11:55 PM iceage has responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 26 of 30 (418181)
    08-26-2007 8:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by Rob
    08-25-2007 11:55 PM


    Holy Genocide
    Rob writes:

    I answered your questions.

    Please summarize and highlight where you believe you answered the question and have reconciled how these dark episodes of killing, plundering and rape are internally coherent with the message of love your enemy.

    While you are summarizing, also please explain how your own sociopathic comment of support for genocide...

    Rob shamefully writes:

    It is up to us to take responsibility, and sometimes wipe out whole communities to keep the 'total organism' within our control.

    Is reconcilable with the words of Jesus?

    Matthew writes:

    But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

    Do Jesus's teachings require qualification?

    Interestingly your words more closely align with medieval Christian thought or contemporary radical Islamic thought. For example, your comments are more closely aligned with the Iranian president....

    Ahmadinejad writes:

    Very soon, this stain of disgrace [Israel] will be purged from the center of the Islamic world and this is obtainable

    Your words use the same language of most genocidal campaigns, claiming the killing is required "to heal" or for the "greater good" or "remove the stain" and in your case, perhaps even more despicable, "keep total control".


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by Rob, posted 08-25-2007 11:55 PM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 12:42 AM iceage has responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 28 of 30 (418838)
    08-30-2007 3:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 27 by Rob
    08-28-2007 12:42 AM


    Prayers of what and to whom
    Rob writes:

    I'll pray for you even more than I already do.

    I went back and reread my post trying to find what it was exactly that caused you to believe that I was in need more prayer !!!

    Was it the emphasis I was placing on Jesus's "love your enemy, bless them that curse you, do good to those who hate you" teachings.

    Further I wonder what and to *whom* you are going to pray. I can envision your prayer something like this...

    quote:

    Dear Jesus please open their eyes so that they can understand the qualifications and relativeness associated with your own words and and teachings.

    Please Jesus let them understand the spiritual dimensions associated with genocide and the righteousness and necessity of "wiping out whole communities" to keep the organism healthy and in control.

    Let them understand the even though Supernova are well within your control that there are times when, you dear God, need us, your loyal servants, to carry out holy hits in your holy name.

    Yay dear God let them understand there is time for murder, taking virgins for ones selves, slavery and plunder.

    These things we pray, in your holy name - Amen


    Well in all seriousness you appear to have hit the bottom and have run dry with any defenses related to the topic.

    Just why is that you want to this to remain a "Great Debate" when you have nothing to offer other than supposed prayers.

    Are you still thinking and searching for possible reconciliations related to this topic? If so I can understand that and don't have problem. However if it is some weird self-infested sort of pride then be done with it man.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by Rob, posted 08-28-2007 12:42 AM Rob has not yet responded

      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 29 of 30 (419204)
    09-01-2007 2:05 PM


    Bump for Rob
    Just doing my part to keep threads on track around here.

    Any particular reason why you abandoned this thread? Any particular reason why you are unable to focus and summarize your position? Any particular reason why you refuse to allow others in here?

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


      
    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4421 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 30 of 30 (420241)
    09-07-2007 12:53 AM


    Bump again... and again....
    Rob have you abandon this thread?

    Since you have not responded for quite some time I thought I would remind you of the topic...

    Rob writes:

    I invite you to put the God of the bible on trial and find a contradiction...

    OK try this....

    iceage writes:

    How is the principle NT ethic of loving your neighbor and further even loving and praying for your enemies and overcoming evil with good, reconcilable or coherent with the OT instructive stories which allegedly involve direct commands of God which go counter to the NT ethic?


      
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