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Author Topic:   Does the Christian God Play with Free Will?
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 6 of 83 (41762)
05-30-2003 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
05-27-2003 10:48 PM


Free Will?
I think that if the Christian God exists, he obviously and arbitrarily futzes with free will. The entire story line of both the OT and NT is God manuevering around our supposed "free will". His book is full of confusing personality changes (fear God, love God, there is no fear in love), unfair testing of people and "laws" that he himself breaks (or commands his chosen to break). Then comes the clincher, the ultimate debunking of a truely free will...the threat that if you don't make the "right" choice you will suffer eternity in hell. I don't know about you but a coersed choice based on confusing, unfair and arbitrary commands doesn't sound all that free to me.
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My son and I had a discussion just tonight on free will. (coincidentally after seeing Bruce Almighty ) He is a strick determinist and does not believe that free will exists. I am agnostic concerning the existance of either god or free will, but I do believe that for free will to exist it could only come about in a deistic universe.
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Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 05-27-2003 10:48 PM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by John, posted 05-30-2003 12:00 PM Asgara has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 8 of 83 (41799)
05-30-2003 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by John
05-30-2003 12:00 PM


Re: Free Will?
Hi John,
You would ask that . This is only my musings, formulated in the wee hours, so please take it as just that. However, I will attempt to put down in this post my reasoning.
In a purely naturalistic universe there is a cause to every effect. People are products of their heredity and environment and every choice we make is dependent on the events that lead up to the moment of choice. I suppose that you could argue that the ability to make a choice constitutes free will and in fact this is one definition of free will:
The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
However, the second definition of free will is:
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
All choices are constrained by external circumstances.
In a theistic universe, one designed and controlled by a supreme being, all choices are constrained by this being. God being the one that defines the choices we are given.
AHHHH. I guess I have to make a change to my original musings concerning a deistic universe. A being that started the initial creation and set in motion the physical laws of the universe, but has no further input in this creation, has still left no unconstrained choice.
Maybe there IS no such thing as a true free will, unconstrained by external circumstances. What we have is a "choice" bounded by a set of options determined by our heredity and environment and the decision we make is likewise determined by these same factors.
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(editorial disclaimer)
This has been an exercise showing the differences in my thought processes on NO sleep and on eight hours of sleep. LOL (all thoughts subject to change at my whim )
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Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by John, posted 05-30-2003 12:00 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by John, posted 05-30-2003 4:07 PM Asgara has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2321 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 10 of 83 (41810)
05-30-2003 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by John
05-30-2003 4:07 PM


Re: Free Will?
John,
Thanks for your reply.
Actually, what you have described is a purely mechanistic universe. This is the 'clockwork' universe favored by western scientists until about a century ago. It is not the same as 'naturalism' which is the simply the idea that everything in the universe can be described in terms of what we observe.
Thanks for the clarification. To be honest though, I was using the term "naturalistic universe" solely as an opposing definition to a "supernatural" creation.
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I have only a rudimentary understanding of quantum mechanics, but would it be fair to say that it is only an "appearance" of randomness? That we just have not been able, as of yet, to ascribe a cause/effect relationship to what we have observed, but one may yet be discovered?
Is the "appearance" of cause/effect and of randomness any differant than the "appearance" of free will? In that all are merely a product of our current perspective and knowledge? (no need for reply, just more musings that may or may not make any sense what so ever) ^^
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Curiosity will yet kill this cat, it being the sole reason that I don't get much sleep lately.
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Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by John, posted 05-30-2003 4:07 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by John, posted 05-31-2003 6:34 PM Asgara has not replied

  
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