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Author Topic:   Holistic Doctors, and medicine
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 136 of 304 (417974)
08-25-2007 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by nator
08-25-2007 7:44 AM


Re: well...
nator, I just spent an hour tracking down the refs from this:
JAMA writes:
Of the 74 quantitative studies, 23 were clearly unsupportive. Eight reported no statistically significant results,16, 58, 98-103 3 admitted to having inadequate samples,22, 56, 104 2 were inconclusive,11, 105 and 6 had negative findings.106-111 Four attempted independent replications but failed to support the original findings.112-115 To our knowledge, no attempt to conduct experiments to reconcile any of these unsupportive findings has been reported.
Of those that had inadequate samples, two were dissertations (no online access). The third, Krieger D. Therapeutic Touch: the imprimatur of nursing. Am J Nurs. 1975;75:784-787, referred to two studies; one had a sample size of 19 (9 control) and the other had a sample size of 46 (29 control).
Since Dr. Barrett doesn't explain how he determined "inadequate sample size", I have know way of knowing why 19/9 or 46/29 is bad and 84/42 (the Ray "study") is good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by nator, posted 08-25-2007 7:44 AM nator has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 137 of 304 (417993)
08-25-2007 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by molbiogirl
08-25-2007 7:53 AM


Determining Sample Size
As molbiogirl and nator have asked, the way you determine sample size is dependent upon the distribution you are expecting. And if you have any information regarding how prevalent the trait you are testing for actually exists in the population, that will have an effect, too. Any decent statistics book should have a section on estimation and processes to help you determine what your sample size must be.
For example, if we have a binomial distribution with a series of n independent Bernoulli trials, we're trying to find the smallest n such that:
P(|Y/n - p| < d) = 1 - a
If you want, I can go through all the math involved, but it comes down to, assuming we don't know p:
n = z2a/2p(1-p)/d2
But if we don't know p, then we notice that p(1-p) is always less than or equal to 1/4 so in a completely blind situation:
n >= z2a/2/4d2
So if you want a sample such that we'll be within 0.05 of the true proportion with 95% confidence, (za/2 = 1.96), we get:
n >= (1.96)2/4(0.05)2 = 384.12
Or 385. But if we know that p = 0.25, we get:
n = (1.96)2(0.25)(0.75)/(0.05)2 = 288.12
Or 289.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by molbiogirl, posted 08-25-2007 7:53 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by molbiogirl, posted 08-25-2007 8:26 PM Rrhain has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 138 of 304 (418000)
08-25-2007 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Rrhain
08-25-2007 6:54 PM


Re: Determining Sample Size
Just to be absolutely clear ...
In order to test whether a "holistic" practitioner could sense an HEF (human energy field) thru TT (therapeutic touch), one would need a sample of either 385 for 0.05 of the true proportion with 95% confidence or 289 for 0.25 of the true proportion with 95% confidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2007 6:54 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Rrhain, posted 08-25-2007 10:32 PM molbiogirl has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 139 of 304 (418002)
08-25-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by molbiogirl
08-25-2007 5:19 PM


Re: References
Hopefully you people realize that I'm not going to give you detailed accounts of every move I've ever made concerning my health care and providers. I've moved a lot in my lifetime, so I have been to a multitude of MDs over the years. Sometimes ones insurance narrows the choices. Stop assuming I don't read what the hospital has on the MDs. Stop assuming I didn't ask questions. Stop assuming I didn't tell them what I ate. I'm not asking for recommendations.
I had been to my dentist for ten years before my nutrition issue.
There's a medical battle going on around here, so doctors are limited depending on your insurance. I switched to my husband's doctor of 10 years, who was a D.O., after mine was moved out of our network. So please everyone get over the idea that I just stuck a pin in the phone book.
quote:
It is extraordinarily unlikely that "those practices" (rigorous academic institutions, peer-review, etc.) will be put in place for naturopathy for the simple reason that naturopathy will not stand up under scientific scrutiny.
Guess we'll have to wait and see.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by molbiogirl, posted 08-25-2007 5:19 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by molbiogirl, posted 08-25-2007 9:49 PM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 140 of 304 (418006)
08-25-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by purpledawn
08-25-2007 4:00 PM


Re: References
quote:
I haven't abandoned reason or science.
quote:
I don't recall evidence that the castor oil packs have never worked. We did have evidence that they did cause a reaction in the body and there was clinical evidence of results. (I'm not going to look up the specifics or get into the discussion again in this topic.)
No, I really don't think we did.
There was never, ever any evidence seen in that thread that castor oil packs had any medicinal or theraputic effects whatsoever. We couldn't even find any evidence that castor oil applied to the skin penetrated far enough to reach the bloodstream, IIRC.
You most certainly have abandoned reason, science, and evidence, and so has any practitioner who tells you they will affect your uterus or your liver or whatever. It is simply completely and utterly unsupported. Make believe. Baseless.
As long as the gullible and the self-deluded continue to financially support pseudoscience and quackery, such practices will never be regulated.
And you should also know that the term "clinical test" isn't the same, nor is it as rigorous, as real scientific testing. It is a vague, wiggly sort of term that people use to market their products.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by purpledawn, posted 08-25-2007 4:00 PM purpledawn has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 141 of 304 (418014)
08-25-2007 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by purpledawn
08-25-2007 8:39 PM


Re: References
Guess we'll have to wait and see.
Not at all.
Naturopathy has been around for over 150 years. In that time, naturopathy has failed to gain scientific acceptance.
By way of contrast, the practice of (modern) medicine was only 50 years old when the AMA advocated for higher medical education training standards in 1900.
By 1905, the AMA had established the Council on Pharmacy and Chemistry to set standards for drug manufacturing and advertising and fight the war on quack patent medicines and nostrum trade.
Naturopathy, on the other hand, has only recently established several organizations:
The American Naturopathic Medical Association (ANMA) founded 1981
American Association of Naturopathic Physicians (AANP) founded 1985
Homeopathic Academy of Naturopathic Physicians (HANP) founded 1983
These organizations endorse loads of quackery (such as homeopathy) and fight professional accreditation standards for its "educational" institutions.
(Btw, the "leading" naturopathy "school" was established in 1978.)
MDs are licensed by the state.
Naturopaths are licensed as independent practitioners in 13 states (Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Kansas, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, Oregon, Utah, Vermont, and Washington) and the District of Columbia, and can legally practice in a few others [14]. ...however, naturopathic licensing boards have done little or nothing to protect the public from naturopathy's widespread quackery.
Naturowatch | Quackwatch
MDs undergo rigorous training.
A "doctor of naturopathy" (N.D.) has two years of basic science courses and two years of clinical work.
Naturowatch | Quackwatch
In addition, naturopathy "schools" receive much of their financial support from companies that market dietary supplements, homeopathic products, and/or herbal remedies.
In 1987, the U.S. Secretary of Education approved the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education (CNME) as an accrediting agency for the full-time schools. As with acupuncture and chiropractic schools, this recognition was not based upon the scientific validity of what is taught but on such factors as record-keeping, physical assets, financial status, makeup of the governing body, catalog characteristics, nondiscrimination policy, and self-evaluation system.
Naturowatch | Quackwatch
When naturopathic "schools" failed to meet even those minimal reporting criteria, the CNME's application for renewal in 2001 was denied. In 2003, the CNME re applied and was granted a 2 year recognition.
Furthermore ...
In 1968, the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare (HEW) recommended against Medicare coverage of naturopathy. HEW's report concluded:
Naturopathic theory and practice are not based upon the body of basic knowledge related to health, disease, and health care which has been widely accepted by the scientific community. Moreover, irrespective of its theory, the scope and quality of naturopathic education do not prepare the practitioner to make an adequate diagnosis and provide appropriate treatment.
Naturowatch | Quackwatch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 08-25-2007 8:39 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by nator, posted 08-26-2007 9:14 AM molbiogirl has not replied
 Message 144 by purpledawn, posted 08-26-2007 11:14 AM molbiogirl has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 142 of 304 (418023)
08-25-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by molbiogirl
08-25-2007 8:26 PM


Re: Determining Sample Size
molbiogirl responds to me:
quote:
In order to test whether a "holistic" practitioner could sense an HEF (human energy field) thru TT (therapeutic touch), one would need a sample of either 385 for 0.05 of the true proportion with 95% confidence or 289 for 0.25 of the true proportion with 95% confidence?
...and this is where my statistics breaks down. My degree is Applied Mathematics, not Statistics. I don't rightly know enough about the situation at hand to be able to say if we have the appropriate model involved. While it certainly seems to be appropriate that this is modeled by n independent Bernoulli trials, I don't want to insist upon it. For example, this model assumes that all people who can detect this life energy have the same ability to sense it. I'm not willing to make that assumption.
But just to clarify, it's 385 people if we don't know what the chance is for any given person to be able to detect it (or if we know that exactly 1/2 the population can). If, however, we know that it's 25% (or, complementarily, 75%), then it's down to 289.
If we know it's 10% (or, complementarily, 90%), the sample size drops to 139.
If 12 is going to be a valid sample, then p must be about 3% (or, conversely, 97%):
12 = (1.962)[p(1-p)]/(0.052)
12(0.052)/(1.962) = p - p2
p2 - p + 0.3 = 0
Simple quadratic, solving for p:
p = .031 or .969
So to the higher question as to whether or not 12 is a valid sample, the answer is: It depends. If we expect something to happen practically every single time (or, conversely, practically never), then we don't need very many trials to have a high confidence. If these practitioners can be expected to be able to detect it with near-perfect ability, then yes, a sample size of 12 is sufficient.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by molbiogirl, posted 08-25-2007 8:26 PM molbiogirl has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2197 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 143 of 304 (418069)
08-26-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by molbiogirl
08-25-2007 9:49 PM


Re: References
Many thanks for the history on medical regulatory practices, molbiogirl.
PD and others like to present modern medicine and "natural healing practitioners" of various sorts on some kind of equal plane. As if they are just two sides of the same coin, or just different, yet equally-valid approaches to healthcare.
Nothing could be further from the truth, as your post demonstrates.
To summarize:
We know that the scientific rigor and the educational rigor of modern medicine is much greater than ND's and other such "alternative" practitioners.
We know that modern medicine instituted educational standards and standards for practices quite early on, while it has taken ND's over 100 years longer to even begin to do so, even though Naturopathy has existed much longer than modern medicine. We also know that the standards modern medicine has instituted are a great deal more strict than those of ND's. (Let alone those of other "alternative" practitioners)
We know that in their practice and philosopy ND's mix scientifically sound ideas with pseudoscience and quackery, a combination that is dangerous to the average consumer because it can easily mislead people to believe that everything the ND is claiming is backed by science. Or at least has been demonstrated to work and be safe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by molbiogirl, posted 08-25-2007 9:49 PM molbiogirl has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 144 of 304 (418102)
08-26-2007 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by molbiogirl
08-25-2007 9:49 PM


Time Will Tell
quote:
Naturopathy has been around for over 150 years. In that time, naturopathy has failed to gain scientific acceptance.
Nutrition is accepted by science.
Johns Hopkins on Complementary and Alternative Medicine
Acupuncture at Johns Hopkins
quote:
By way of contrast, the practice of (modern) medicine was only 50 years old when the AMA advocated for higher medical education training standards in 1900.
The high cost of medication and the perception that medicine has become impersonal has led to a resurgence in the alternative medicine fields. Homeopathic popularity faded in the 1940's discovery of antibiotics and other effective pharmaceuticals. The resurgence hasn't really been around for 50 years. Personally, I think it has become more of a concern now because it is now a money maker. When money is to be had the quacks come out. It will take time for our government to put things in order. Someone or some group has to get the ball rolling. It takes money. There is a lot more red tape to deal with now than there was in 1847 when the AMA came to be or even in 1900.
quote:
In addition, naturopathy "schools" receive much of their financial support from companies that market dietary supplements, homeopathic products, and/or herbal remedies.
And medical schools get money from drug companies. Medical Schools and Drug Firm Dollars
quote:
When naturopathic "schools" failed to meet even those minimal reporting criteria, the CNME's application for renewal in 2001 was denied. In 2003, the CNME re applied and was granted a 2 year recognition.
So there are standards to be met. It is unrealistic to expect development of standards to go flawlessly. They will find their way or die out.
HEW in 1968.
In 1968, the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare (HEW) recommended against Medicare coverage of naturopathy. HEW's report concluded:...
Chiropractic coverage didn't happen until 1975. Time will tell if other disciplines make the list.
White House Commission on Complementary and Alternative Medicine Policy (2002)
Chapter 8: CAM in Wellness and Health Promotion
Chapter 9: Coordinating Federal CAM Efforts
Chapter 10: Recommendations and Actions
Like I said, each has their place.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by molbiogirl, posted 08-25-2007 9:49 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 6:23 PM purpledawn has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 145 of 304 (418173)
08-26-2007 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by purpledawn
08-26-2007 11:14 AM


Re: Time Will Tell
Nutrition is accepted by science.
Not the wackjob version alties advocate.
Acupuncture at Johns Hopkins
A quick pubmed search reveals 608 pubs on acupuncture.
As you might imagine, hundreds are from "journals" like Traditional Chinese Medicine. Most of those published in reputable journals deal with "quality of life" relief (aka placebo).
There are a few that investigate the physiological effects of acupuncture. And I'm assuming (tho I can't tell from JH's site) that some serious NIH money will be spent to look into the efficacy of acupuncture at JH. So far, the results aren't promising.
Which isn't surprising, as acupuncture is thought to move qi. Which doesn't exist.
And don't find insurance coverage of chiro or (as in the UK) insurance coverage of homeopathy impressive.
Homeopathics are tapwater.
Chiro is bunk.
And believe me, loads of people are plenty pissed that tax $ is thrown away on such nonsense.
And the insurance companies are fighting back.
American Specialty Health, Inc. (ASH) has published detailed clinical practice guidelines for 81 "complementary" techniques and procedures, most of which are used mainly by chiropractors. The documents indicate:
68 of these methods would not be covered under the plan because they are considered unsubstantiated, unsafe, or both.
67 of the methods are classified as experimental or investigational because credible scientific evidence is inadequate to support their claimed applications.
48 of the methods are scientifically implausible because they require the existence of forces, mechanisms, or biological processes that are not known to exist within the existing framework of scientific knowledge.
11 of the methods are considered unsafe, either directly or indirectly. The potential harm can be:
Direct: Injury caused by a physical or psychodynamic property of a procedure.
Indirect: caused by substituting a procedure of unknown safety, unknown effectiveness, or known significant risk for one of known safety or effectiveness.
Non-specific: caused by the transmittal of misleading information that can cause emotional harm, cause a false sense of security, or create beliefs about one's health that are manifestly untrue.
53 of the methods would render the practitioner ineligible to participate in the network.
ASH administers benefit programs for 12.1 million members and affinity discount programs for over 80 million members. Its practitioner network includes more than 28,000 acupuncturists, chiropractors, dietitians, massage therapists, and naturopaths. ... the (reports) are remarkable because (a) many of the implausible practices”most notably applied kinesiology”are widely used, (b) chiropractic organizations almost never criticize them, and (c) managed care companies almost never use implausible practices as a criterion for excluding providers.
purple writes:
Homeopathic popularity faded in the 1940's ...
Yet altie "schools" require up to 2 years of homeopathy in the coursework.
Here's the AANP's stand on homeopathy:
WHEREAS homeopathy has been an integral part of naturopathic medicine since its inception and is a recognized specialty for which the naturopathic profession has created a distinct specialty organization, the Homeopathic Academy of Naturopathic Physicians,
WHEREAS homeopathy has been recognized, through rigorous testing and experimentation, as having significant scientific evidence supporting its efficacy and safety.
WHEREAS homeopathic products are being subjected to intensified federal regulations and restrictions,
WHEREAS products are being promoted and marketed as "homeopathic" for a variety of uses ranging from weight-loss aids to immunizations. Many of these preparations are not homeopathic and many have not been satisfactorily proven to be efficacious,
THEREFORE, LET IT BE RESOLVED that it is the position of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians that:
I. Homeopathy is taught in the Naturopathic Colleges and its practice should be included in the naturopathic licensing laws. Naturopathic physicians recognize other licensed practitioners of the healing arts who are properly trained in homeopathy.
II. The naturopathic profession initiate more clinical trials and provings to further evaluate the effectiveness of homeopathy.
III. Naturopathic physicians be authorized to prescribe and dispense all products included in the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the United States (HPUS).
IV. Homeopathic products be subject to strict labeling requirements. Preparations which are not prepared in accord with the manufacturing principles in the HPUS should not use the term "homeopathic.". If parents choose homeopathic preparations for their children or their wards for the prophylaxis of infectious disease as an alternative to conventional vaccines, the physician should clearly state that they are unproven and that they are not legal substitutes for the state-mandated requirements.
V. Homeopathic prescriptions should be made with careful evaluation of their effect on the entire organism.
-- Adopted at the 1993 Annual Convention of American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. Principal Authors: Michael Traub, Lauri Aesoph, Peggy Rollo, Bruce Dickson, Brent Mathieu, Judyth Reichenberg-Ullman, Stephen King, Julian Winston, Louise Edwards, Prudence Broadwell.
From the NPR site:
Government funding for medical research is not expected to increase in coming years and could decline. Medical schools will be more reliant on private, for-profit industry for funding.
Will be more reliant. Maybe. Current levels are 2-16%. A drop in the bucket.
Altie "schools" are funded nearly entirely by Big Pseudo Pharma.
Alties offer NDs online. In fact, there are more diploma mills that actual "schools".
Today, within the United States, a "doctor of naturopathy" (N.D.) or "doctor of naturopathic medicine" (N.M.D.) credential is available from four full-time schools of naturopathy and at least eight nonaccredited correspondence schools, of which seven maintain Web sites. One correspondence school, the Progressive Universal Life Church, offers a "Ph.D. in Naturopathy" for $250 plus "life experience with no coursework. Another nonaccredited school offers a "Naturopathic Practitioner" diploma to eligible individuals who complete a 15-month program of home-study plus a dozen weekend seminars.
Naturowatch | Quackwatch
How many MDs got their diploma online do you think?
From the WHCCAMP final report you cited:
In a group as diverse as the members of this Commission and a field as diverse as CAM, it is not surprising that areas of significant disagreement, particularly about tone and emphasis, remained to the end. In particular, several Commissioners were concerned that the report needs to state even more clearly than it already does that most CAM interventions have not yet been scientifically studied and found to be either safe or effective.
Many of the commissioners agree with the editors of The New England Journal of Medicine who stated in 1998: "There cannot be two kinds of medicine--conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work. Once a treatment has been tested rigorously, it no longer matters whether it was considered alternative at the outset. If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted."
Sounds like a way to stomp out alties, not promote them.
"If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted." That's a big if.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by purpledawn, posted 08-26-2007 11:14 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-26-2007 8:02 PM molbiogirl has replied
 Message 150 by purpledawn, posted 08-26-2007 9:19 PM molbiogirl has replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 146 of 304 (418176)
08-26-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by molbiogirl
08-26-2007 6:23 PM


Chiropractics
Chiro is bunk.
Chiropractic - Wikipedia
While some chiropractics does extend into dubious to highly dubious territory (In skimming the above cite, much more than I realized), I do think that, at the minimum, there are some basic chiropractic procedures that do genuine good for the patient.
Personally, I know that many years ago (in my teens) I "got a kink" in my lower back. I could hardly stand up, and that was quite painful. A little chiropractic manipulation fixed the problem, at least the worst of it. I still do sometimes have some problems in that area, although never as severe as that first time.
I also have several friend who benefit from an occasional "bone cracking".
I think calling chiropractics "total bunk" is plain wrong.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 6:23 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 8:18 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 148 by NosyNed, posted 08-26-2007 8:26 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 147 of 304 (418179)
08-26-2007 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Minnemooseus
08-26-2007 8:02 PM


Re: Chiropractics
Chiro is dangerous.
In 1992, researchers at the Stanford Stroke Center asked 486 California members of the American Academy of Neurology how many patients they had seen during the previous two years who had suffered a stroke within 24 hours of neck manipulation by a chiropractor. The survey was sponsored by the American Heart Association. A total of 177 neurologists reported treating 56 such patients, all of whom were between the ages of 21 and 60. One patient had died, and 48 were left with permanent neurologic deficits such as slurred speech, inability to arrange words properly, and vertigo (dizziness). The usual cause of the strokes was thought to be a tear between the inner and outer walls of the vertebral arteries, which caused the arterial walls to balloon and block the flow of blood to the brain. Three of the strokes involved tears of the carotid arteries [3]. In 1991, according to circulation figures from Dynamic Chiropractic, California had about 19% of the chiropractors practicing in the United States, which suggests that about 147 cases of stroke each year were seen by neurologists nationwide. Of course, additional cases could have been seen by other doctors who did not respond to the survey.
Home Page | Quackwatch
Chiro is full of bunk.
Applied kinesiology (AK), for example, is based on the notion that every organ dysfunction is accompanied by a specific muscle weakness, which enables health problems to be diagnosed through muscle-testing procedures. Testing is typically carried out by pulling on the patient's outstretched arm after placing the test substance (such as a vitamin or food extract) in the patient's mouth until salivation occurs. However, some practitioners place the test material in the patient's hand or touch it to other parts of the body. If a weak muscle becomes stronger when a nutrient (or a food high in the nutrient) is tested, that supposedly indicates "a deficiency normally associated with that muscle." "Treatment" may include special diets, food supplements, acupressure, and spinal manipulation.
Home Page | Quackwatch
Contact Reflex Analysis (CRA) proponents claim that over a thousand health problems can be diagnosed with a muscle test during which the chiropractor's finger or hand is placed on one of 75 "reflex points" on the patient's body. If the patient's arm can be pulled downward, a condition corresponding to the "reflex" is considered present, and dietary supplements (typically made from freeze-dried vegetables or animal organs) are prescribed. CRA's chief proponent teaches that 80% of disease is due to allergy, the two main causes of disease are gallbladder disease and staph infections, and obesity is commonly caused by parasites.
Home Page | Quackwatch
Chiro is an altie stronghold.
It is now generally accepted that spinal manipulation can relieve some types of back pain. Most chiropractors claim to do more than just treat back pain, however.
There is no question that unlocking a spinal joint provides pain relief. That, along with massage and physical therapy, are the sole good that can come of a visit to a chiro. And all three treatments can be had from a licensed, well-trained medical professional.
I will concede the point that chiro is not "total bunk" with the caveat that it is 99% bunk, 1% non bunk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-26-2007 8:02 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by riVeRraT, posted 08-27-2007 10:17 AM molbiogirl has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 148 of 304 (418180)
08-26-2007 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Minnemooseus
08-26-2007 8:02 PM


Re: Chiropractics
I can't speak for elsewhere but here in Canada there have been a small number of cases of stroke and death induced by Chiro procedures.
The manipulation which they do that may be helpful is also performed by physiotherapists. It has been many years since I personally went to a chiropractor but I have relatives that have been within the last few years. I have received manipulation from both.
The difference is that the physio gives warnings about the risks of such manipulations. Chiros did not to my relatives in the fairly recent past. The other difference is the degree of care and gentleness exhibited by physios.
The physical therapy profession here is guided (to a high degree) by evidence for effectiveness. The chiropractors are not.
As of a decade ago physios received more training in the specific treatments and a great deal more. The Chiropractic college here spent rather more time on running the business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-26-2007 8:02 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 8:57 PM NosyNed has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2669 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 149 of 304 (418182)
08-26-2007 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by NosyNed
08-26-2007 8:26 PM


Re: Chiropractics
The Chiropractic college here spent rather more time on running the business.
Indeed.
Success promoters who give seminars to train chiropractors in psychological patient manipulation are a notorious problem within chiropractic. I study a wide variety of health pseudosciences, but I know of no other guild that has formalized the education of practitioners in patient deception.
Chirobase | Quackwatch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by NosyNed, posted 08-26-2007 8:26 PM NosyNed has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3485 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 150 of 304 (418185)
08-26-2007 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by molbiogirl
08-26-2007 6:23 PM


Re: Time Will Tell
And what wackjob version of nutrition do they advocate? In your own words please, not Dr. Barrett's.
I'm really not sure what you are arguing with me about.
Various disciplines fall under alternative medicine. I've simply said it will take time to see what comes out in the wash. I've already agreed that there are quacks and that tougher standards need to be set. I want them to be licensed. But it takes time and when money and politics are involved it takes more time.
There are going to be growing pains.
quote:
"If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted." That's a big if.
Hopefully it would be the same standard of safe and effective as required by the drug companies. IOW, it does what it is supposed to do when used correctly and the health benefits outweigh the risks.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 6:23 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by nator, posted 08-26-2007 11:01 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 152 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 11:09 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 153 by molbiogirl, posted 08-26-2007 11:26 PM purpledawn has replied

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