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Author | Topic: God caused or uncaused? | |||||||||||||||||||
sidelined Member (Idle past 5908 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Rob
sidelined writes: Is there a logical reason why God exists? Rob writes: There must be, but since logic is infinite, we cannot have absolute comprehensive understanding of Him. Then Logic is greater than, not the same as, God.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole? Who cares? In this issue it is irrelevant and unimportant. The question of whether God is caused or uncaused is irrelevant and unimportant as I pointed out in Message 194. Since we are of this universe, speculating about things that are unrelated to this universe, untestable and unobservable is just plain silly. In the case of the topic of this thread, which in case you have forgotten is "God caused or uncaused?", there is no observable external evidence of God. Equally valid arguments could be made for either position. I can state an axiom that God is uncaused, or an axiom that God is caused, and we can then develop a series of statements of consequences based on either of those axioms, but nether axiom is proven true, it is simply assumed to be true for the sake of the argument. You seem to forget the basic Construct. If God exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that It does not exist. If God does not exist, then It does not exist regardless of all the evidence She does exist. Edited by jar, : change the to then Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
sidlined:
Then Logic is greater than, not the same as, God. No, it's just who God is. Good and complete. Love, harmony, order... coherence. Can logic be greater than logic? Is the Father greater than the Son? Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: I'm talking about logic itself Ringo... Can you not see HIm? Nobody can see Him. If people think they see evidence of Him in the physical world, that evidence can fit into their coherent philosophy package. But there can never be a coherent connection to Him. You can find all the fingerprints you want, but you can't identify them as His fingerprints because He isn't in the database. “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
jar:
Who cares? In this issue it is irrelevant and unimportant. That remains to be seen. We're having a conversation. This is not a dictatorship. Please answer the question:
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Ringo:
Nobody can see Him. If people think they see evidence of Him in the physical world, that evidence can fit into their coherent philosophy package. But there can never be a coherent connection to Him. Nobody can see logic? Then could Einstien see that E=MC2 (what is the code for that little square 2)
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5195 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
Rob,
That doesn't tell you how long she would have lived without smoking... That's neither here nor there, that she lived well beyond the average life expectancy is an observation, the inferrred conclusion is that it was the smoking that did it & that smoking is therefore good for you. The point is that as it stands it is a logically valid syllogism, & it is false. Logical coherence doesn't have to = truth. Sorry, but it doesn't. Now, we agreed the terms of this discusssion, so quit stalling & provide evidence of god, please. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rob writes: Nobody can see logic? I said nobody can see Him, i.e. God. Your notion that God = logic is not a given here.
Then could Einstien see that E=MC2 (what is the code for that little square 2) Einstein could see that E = mc2. That's a mathematical representation of a physical phenomenon. If God is supposedly non-physical - i.e. supernatural - He can never be observed in the physical world and any connection between Him and the physical world can not be made logically. (Use <sup> for superscripts.) “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels ------------- Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
mark24:
That's neither here nor there, that she lived well beyond the average life expectancy is an observation, the inferrred conclusion is that it was the smoking that did it & that smoking is therefore good for you. So what about her neighbor who lived beyond the average life expectancy and didn't smoke? Kind of a small sample size isn't it? mark24: Logical coherence doesn't have to = truth. Sorry, but it doesn't. Yes it does. Otherwise there is no truth for us to believe in like the TOE. But there is other information that we are unaware of, to resolve the difficulties of certain cases (ie. your grandmothers genetic predisposition as well as other enviromental factors).
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
That remains to be seen. We're having a conversation. This is not a dictatorship. Please answer the question: Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole? If you will read Message 212 you will see that I not only answered that question but provided the reasoning behind it.
The question of whether God is caused or uncaused is irrelevant and unimportant as I pointed out in Request denied. (Message 194). Since we are of this universe, speculating about things that are unrelated to this universe, untestable and unobservable is just plain silly. In the case of the topic of this thread, which in case you have forgotten is "God caused or uncaused?", there is no observable external evidence of God. Equally valid arguments could be made for either position. I can state an axiom that God is uncaused, or an axiom that God is caused, and we can then develop a series of statements of consequences based on either of those axioms, but nether axiom is proven true, it is simply assumed to be true for the sake of the argument. You seem to forget the basic Construct. If God exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that It does not exist. If God does not exist, then It does not exist regardless of all the evidence She does exist. If you want, you can state either position as axiomatic, and we could then discuss the consequences of that position. However, the starting assumption is still not proven, simply accepted for the sole instance of the discussion. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5908 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Rob
Let us encapsulate what has been discussed in the few posts of ours? Your post #184 where you said
Rob writes: You're missing the point mark... Logic wasn't created by God. Logic is God. Reality (God) is logical. My reply in # 205
sidelined writes: Is there a logical reason why God exists? Then #207 from you
Rob writes: There must be, but since logic is infinite, we cannot have absolute comprehensive understanding of Him. Now you say
Rob writes: No, it's just who God is. Good and complete. Love, harmony, order... coherence. You agreed in #207 that there must be a logical reason for God. Logic then must then restrain God in his actions therefore is greater than God.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Yes or no.
Is logic valid when it matches the external and internal test and is formed into a composite whole? ie. is science valid?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Sidelined:
You agreed in #207 that there must be a logical reason for God. Logic then must then restrain God in his actions therefore is greater than God. Are yo saying that logic is self control?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Ringo:
I said nobody can see Him, i.e. God. Your notion that God = logic is not a given here. Well you flew right over my point then... without discussing it. If logic is not God, then why do you presume the scientific method to be our only salvation? The whole venture of science is only valid if the notions (as you put it) are legitimate. We certainly have faith that they are...
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
The irony and mysteriousness of the fact that there are four or five guys here, using logic to deny or question logic is almost too much for me to handle.
Do we have faith in it or not? Oh the joy of it all.
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