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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 675 (412260)
07-24-2007 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
07-24-2007 3:25 AM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Okay, so you are aware that worms exist.
You also say that the gulf between GOD and man is infinitely greater than the gulf between man and worm.
Now if, as you affirm, you would not get upset if the worm did not believe in you, why would a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, get upset if someone did not believe in Her?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 07-24-2007 3:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 07-24-2007 11:36 AM jar has replied
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 07-25-2007 3:26 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 675 (412321)
07-24-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
07-24-2007 11:36 AM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
I don't see God getting upset if all honest recourse is taken by the human in question. A God of toughlove would only want people to have a communion with Him/Her only for their own good...not for Gods Ego.
Huh?
What does that have to do with "Now if, as you affirm, you would not get upset if the worm did not believe in you, why would a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, get upset if someone did not believe in Her?"
All we are discussing now is whether or not God would care if someone did not believe in God.
And yet again, what does ...
As you have inferred before, the people who have read the manual will be expected to conform to a stricter standard. Humans have reasoning, conscience, and the ability to be responsible for their lives. (its unknown what worms are capable of)
have to do with the issue?
So the question is: All things considered, do humans need a relationship with God in order to manifest their destiny?
No!
And yet again, what does that have to do with the specific question of whether or not GOD cares if anyone believes in Her?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 07-24-2007 11:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 99 of 675 (412535)
07-25-2007 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
07-25-2007 3:26 AM


Re: Snake Oil comes in many flavors
The issue is not that God isso insecure as to need us to believe in her.
Only if you play moving goal posts. In Message 86 you said:
Phat writes:
Now on to another belief of yours that bothers me......
This idea that God does not care if we even believe in "her" or not.
That tears up another whole chapter of dogma and throws it to the wind.
so the issue most certainly is whether or not God would require man to believe in Her.
The issue is that God knows that if we believe in the alternative(s) it will bode ill for us.
Aren't you creating a false dichotomy there Phat? Are those the only choices? What other choices? Why would those choices be bad?
A Father may not really care if their kid does not think of them as the greatest role model and Dad of the year, but that same Father would be legitimately concerned if their prodigal began to believe that the local drug dealer, fast talking used car salesman/employer or even the huckster preacher captured their sons interest and that the lad was being misled down primrose paths of doom.
What does that have to do with the issue? You are now bringing up behaviors that are totally unrelated to the question and also simply irrelevant.
If that child believed that his father was the greatest dad in the world and still followed the behavior you mentioned, would it be any different?
I'll state my belief again: God wants us to have a relationship with Him.
How much of a relationship can you have with a worm?
He wants us to realize that we are not the captain of our ship nor the master of our soul.
Would you want the worm to realize that it lives only at your suffrage?
Further, there are many charlatans that would love to trick us into allowing them to control our destiny as well.
Of course. They are often called Pastor or Brother or Reverend or Bishop.
But in the end, it can only be you that controls your destiny, there just aren't many other choices. You can control it yourself, turn it over to some other human or turn it over to fantasy. But it is still you that makes those decisions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 07-25-2007 3:26 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 07-25-2007 10:22 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 675 (412550)
07-25-2007 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
07-25-2007 10:22 AM


Relationships-Communion and other jabberwocky.
How much relationship would I even want to have with a darn worm? But of course I am a selfish human, rather than an omnipotent altruistic God....who may well desire to commune with worms!
It is not a matter of what someone wants, as much as a matter of what is possible.
How much of a relationship can you have with a worm?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 07-25-2007 10:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 07-26-2007 5:46 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 103 of 675 (412779)
07-26-2007 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Phat
07-26-2007 5:46 AM


Re: Relationships-Communion and other jabberwocky.
Yet you have claimed that the gulf between GOD and man is infinitely greater than between man and worm.
It is simply impossible for a worm to see as you do, to think as you do, to experience what you experience. It is also impossible for you to so limit yourself that you could see as the worm sees, think as a worm, experience as a worm.
If though, you could do that, you would no longer be a man. To communion, to have a relationship, there must be something fairly close to parity.
A man can have a relationship with a dog, the dog can obey the man, perhaps even love the man, but the relationship will always be limited.
As the gulf between two lifeforms increases, the possibility of communion or relationships becomes increasingly unlikely.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Phat, posted 07-26-2007 5:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 104 of 675 (412956)
07-27-2007 12:17 AM


some thoughts on relationships
To have a relationship, a communion, there needs to be something approximating parity between the participants. A man cannot have a relationship with a worm, or a stone, or grass.
GOD, if GOD exists, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen; GOD, if GOD actually exists and is the creator of this universe we inhabit, is so far different from a mere human that any relationship is impossible.
There are only two ways such a relationship can happen.
One is if GOD is somewhat comparable to man. That means creating a God that is "human", no longer that different from you or me.
The other is to imagine man as God.
To have a relationship with God is to diminish God or glorify Man.
So is there any possible relationship?
I think there was, and that we have a record of that relationship, but that it is in the past.
Once, GOD became man.
Not God disguised as man, not god in the form of man, but man.
That record is the history of Jesus.
Jesus, during his lifetime here on earth, was man, not divine, not God, but man.
As a man, Jesus was able to have relationship, communion, with mankind. Before Jesus birth, after the Ascension, such relationships were not and are not possible.
So what kind of a connection can we have with GOD today?
Well, not a communion, or even much of a relationship. But we can learn from what has been taught. Jesus showed us what is possible. He taught us what the real capabilities of "just a man" can be.
We have those histories, those examples, and we have the instructions that Jesus brought us on how to live a life.
We can, like a child worshiping a hero, try to emulate the best example we have.
It all comes down though to what WE do.
Life is ours to live.
The mistakes are ours to make, and we will make mistakes. The goal is to always try to make NEW mistakes, to learn from all those OLD mistakes and to try not to repeat them.
We can struggle with our conscience, but it is OUR conscience, not some outside being.
Once, GOD became man. What a magnificent thing to do.
But we live today. And today, we must work with what we have. To claim some relationship with GOD is to diminish God or Glorify Man.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 08-01-2007 9:51 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 675 (413777)
08-01-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
08-01-2007 9:51 AM


Re: some thoughts on relationships
So you are saying that we cannot have the same type of a communion/prayer relationship with God that Jesus had?
No. We can have the same communion/prayer relationship that Jesus had while he was here on earth which was only belief.
I would say that Jesus taught us how to commune with God. He was God incarnate, which means that He was not God the Father but was fully and legally Gods representation among us "worms."
NO!
Jesus when here on Earth "became incarnate from the Virgin Mary and was made Man."
Jesus while here on earth was only man, just man. Otherwise the whole theology is but a fraud.
Next you bring in the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Before going into that in depth, you need to learn the History behind it. First, it was a political document. It was created as a test to determine who could hold political power.
Since then it has been revised many times beginning almost immediately. Parts are accepted, many parts rejected, and different churches follow different parts and ignore others.
Are you saying that there is nothing special about accepting Jesus?
Yup.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 08-01-2007 9:51 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 08-06-2007 1:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 09-04-2007 3:26 PM jar has replied
 Message 127 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-04-2007 4:19 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 675 (414805)
08-06-2007 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
08-06-2007 1:19 PM


Re: Where Did We Go Wrong?
What did He mean with God?
That GOD can do things we can't?
1) Why are some of us willfully ignorant?
You must answer that yourself.
2) How are we being dishonest with ourselves?
Mostly by avoiding questioning beliefs against reason, logic and reality.
3) Do we worship or know the same God you do, in your opinion?
I can only go by the description of God that others present. For the most part, many present a tiny little picayune god that is unworthy of even notice, much less respect. Others present an evil little god that might rightly be feared, but could never be loved.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 08-06-2007 1:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 08-12-2007 9:52 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 675 (415817)
08-12-2007 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
08-12-2007 9:52 AM


Re: Hypothetical Heavenly Courtroom scenarios
I wanted to first ask you for your comments on my post that I made to Rrhain here.
I think your response was unrelated to the issue he is trying to raise.
My question, in light of my hypothetical courtroom scenario, is
whether the Judge will throw the case out of court or allow it to continue?
I think the scenario is silly. Just how the hell does one "willfully and knowingly" break the laws of nature?
That simply makes no sense at all.
The rest of the scenario is just silly.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 08-12-2007 9:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 675 (415819)
08-12-2007 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
08-12-2007 9:52 AM


Re: Hypothetical Heavenly Courtroom scenarios
I wanted to make this a separate message for emphasis.
You said:
My argument is that even worms get their day in court...not so much for the purpose of judgment as for the opportunity to get to know The Judge and review their expectations as law abiding worms in the garden of life.
I'm sorry but that is simply not the function of a court. Courts are not there for socialization despite the impression that might result from watching Harry Stone.
If the intention is to get to know GOD, then a backyard BBQ, a fish fry or Low Country Boil is the better venue.
Courts are specifically for trials.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 08-12-2007 9:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 675 (417999)
08-25-2007 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
08-25-2007 7:51 PM


Losing me here.
Yet IF God foreknew the results and everyone got saved and made it into Heaven like that darn Parable Of The Workers! I will concede, however, that you clarified your position on this doctrine long ago when you settled it with Father Joe concerning the Warlord in China. Yes, he should have saved everyone!
I think you are still misunderstanding what I am saying.
You say "God may well choose all of us, but it is our decision whether to choose God or not." However if God has foreknowledge and then creates critters that he knows will reject Her, and then in addition attaches the penalty of damnation, then that God can ONLY be described as evil. It might be something to fear but could never be considered something worthy of love, respect or obedience.
The only point of interaction that we can have with God is at this present moment. It is irrelevant what God foreknows about our future decisions or lack of same. All that is relevant is the type of relationship that we have with God now.
As above, that is irrelevant if God has foreknowledge, is the creator and does attach penalties and sanctions. It is relevant if God has foreknowledge and still creates. The God you describe is simply nothing I could respect, love or worship.
And sorry, I can see no point to your play.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 08-25-2007 7:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 08-27-2007 12:12 PM jar has replied
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 08-27-2007 5:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 675 (418314)
08-27-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
08-27-2007 12:12 PM


Picking and Choosing?
First of all, what made you think that you could pick and choose which God to worship based on what you consider fair?
We all decide what to worship. It is not a matter of whether I can or not, there is no other option then picking and choosing.
God is God no matter whether you refuse to worship Him based on your human logic or not.
Yes, if God exists then God exists.
But I can also choose to worship or not worship and the God you describe is not something that is worthy of my respect or worship, much less my love. The God you describe is fearsome, loathsome and pityful.
I'm still having trouble coming to terms with a God who saves everyone yet judges us based on our behavior alone. I know that I have probably already failed the class with this God....so where is the hope there?
The hope is that when you are judged it will be by someone who has been human, and personally experienced all those same failures.
Do you believe in the doctrine of Divine Grace or do you consider it a convenient copout?
The concept of Divine Grace as believed by many Christian sects has as a basic tenet Original Sin. Since I do not believe there is any Biblical support or reason to believe in Original Sin, then I cannot be said to believe in that VERSION of Divine Grace.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 08-27-2007 12:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 675 (418354)
08-27-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
08-27-2007 5:17 PM


Re: The Bar-B-Que
The purpose, according to Bobbleheads, is to always be a witness for Christ and to spread the message of His atonement and sacrifice for all of us since He loved us.
Yawn. Who cares.
Let me try to give you a concrete example. One of the Church Websites I help with posts a Commitment to Excellence that each Vestry Person signs. The first item is "Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words."
The way you preach the Gospel is by what you do, words are just a last resort.
So what are the topics of conversation at this event? Are the men telling off color jokes? When the teen guys approach the men, is there talk of getting laid and becoming a man?
Very likely.
Is there flirting going on between the sexes?
Absolutely.
By the same token, however, I think that it is important to be moral and ethical examples for the next generation.
Guess how you get a next generation?
I believe that as witnesses, God does not expect us to be perfect. He expects us to be honest and to always be prepared to share the hope that is in our hearts.
Honest? You need to be honest with yourself. But honest with yourself for YOU, not for God.
And sure, share the hope that is in your heart, if necessary use words.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 08-27-2007 5:17 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-28-2007 8:02 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 675 (418476)
08-28-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
08-28-2007 8:02 AM


Re: The Bar-B-Que
People obviously do not need to have the same interpretation that the artist intended, but there is little debate over whose opinion carries the most weight.
Nonsense. That point is being debated in this thread.
The Artist alone determines the meaning of his/her Art.
I'm sorry but that is simply nonsense. The artist may be able to point out what meaning She tried to convey, but the viewer is also able to point out that the artist failed.
You acknowledged that yourself when you wrote "Having created the picture from his mind and through his body, the artist alone knows the message that the art was meant to convey."
Meant to convey.
To start off you said,
"We could draw pictures! A picture is worth a thousand words, according to some."
If that is really in response to what I had posted earlier, it could be an addendum, "Preach the Gospel, if necessary use words or pictures." But words or pictures are still only means of last resort. The primary way to preach the Gospel is to do; not say, not sing, not testify, but do.
You then went on to say:
Phat writes:
The Artist alone determines the meaning of his/her Art. Its the same with God. The One who painted the picture, created the intelligence to even form the words of expression, and foreknew the character of every living thing and who made reality and awareness possible has the best opinion on the overall purpose and meaning of life itself.
Even if true, so what? What does that have to do with you or me or anyone else living? So what if God knows what God intended. We are not God and we can only judge the work, not the intent.
It really sounds like the classic example of preaching a Gospel of Nonsense.
BTW why is it that God is unknowable? Is it impossible for God to make Himself knowable to us?
Certainly it is possible for God to make Herself knowable to us. It could raise man up to be God. That way Man and God could know each other.
There is the other possibility, It could diminish Itself to be just Man. However in that case we know another man, not a God.
Edited by jar, : amazing how many misspelled words can pass through a spell checker.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-28-2007 8:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-28-2007 4:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 675 (418526)
08-28-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-28-2007 4:14 PM


Re: The Bar-B-Que
Granted there are different interpretations among Christians on what it means to Preach The Gospel.
So what?
The issue is "Does a given interpretation stand up when tested against reason, logic and reality?"
If the Gospel means the good news that God once became a Man,...
What value is there in telling someone that?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-28-2007 4:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Phat, posted 09-01-2007 9:43 AM jar has replied

  
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