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Author Topic:   Chicken Bone
Wonderly2
Junior Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 08-20-2007


Message 16 of 27 (418218)
08-27-2007 12:34 AM


"either way, and not to be insulting, this might be included in that category. the evolutionary answer involves basically everything from proto-chordates, to boneless fishes, to osteicthys, to tiktaalik and early amphibians, to reptiles, to archosauria, to dinosaurs, to theropoda, into aves. way, way too much to go over at one time, in a single sitting -- way to much even for a single thread.

developmentally, i can't answer that question very well. someone else will have to take it. "

This is what I cannot understand. If you do not know how a bone forms from birth, something which scientists can actually observe, why would you even start to think you know how it developed from nothing?

And the reason I post this thread, is that if science does not even know the complexities involved in the developmental process, than it seems ridiculous for science to question its ultimate origin. Why not actually do the scientific stuff first. Spend more time observing and testing, and less guessing about the past. Of course, this whole thought is based on the fact that I have not found answers from science. That of course does not mean that one does not exist. That is where you all come in.


Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 08-27-2007 12:47 AM Wonderly2 has not yet responded
 Message 19 by jar, posted 08-27-2007 12:48 AM Wonderly2 has not yet responded
 Message 20 by molbiogirl, posted 08-27-2007 12:57 AM Wonderly2 has not yet responded
 Message 25 by Taz, posted 08-27-2007 2:03 AM Wonderly2 has not yet responded

Wonderly2
Junior Member (Idle past 4397 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 08-20-2007


Message 17 of 27 (418220)
08-27-2007 12:36 AM


lets say conception.

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 316 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 27 (418222)
08-27-2007 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Wonderly2
08-27-2007 12:34 AM


you grabbed my response before i deleted it -- you posted the answer to the question i was asking, as i was asking it, making my reply somewhat moot.

This is what I cannot understand. If you do not know how a bone forms from birth, something which scientists can actually observe, why would you even start to think you know how it developed from nothing?

well, this is simply to say that i am not particularly well-versed in developmental biology, not that no one is.

the simple answer is that DNA dictates how cells divide in an embryo, and what forms stem cells will take. i cannot personally give you the complex answer.

And the reason I post this thread, is that if science does not even know the complexities involved in the developmental process, than it seems ridiculous for science to question its ultimate origin. Why not actually do the scientific stuff first.

people are. developmental biologists do this stuff for a living. it's just that i am not a developmental biologist. i happen to understand a bit of the evolutionary history of chickens, but i am an only amateur in that arena. my personal inability to tell you off the top of my head does not mean that developmental biologists do not exist.

edit: also, if you use the "reply" button, to specific posts, people will be notified (making for more conversation) and it will be easier to see what your posts are in reply to.

Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Wonderly2, posted 08-27-2007 12:34 AM Wonderly2 has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31764
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 19 of 27 (418223)
08-27-2007 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Wonderly2
08-27-2007 12:34 AM


The information is there.
If you do not know how a bone forms from birth, something which scientists can actually observe, why would you even start to think you know how it developed from nothing?

Well, folk actually have a pretty good idea of how bones develop throughout the growth process. If you go to Google Scholar and search on "bone development" +embryo you will get several thousand papers on the subject.

The other mistake you make is when you say "how it developed from nothing". It is only Biblical Creationists that think something developed from nothing. No biologist would consider such an assertion. Certainly the Theory of Evolution does not make that assumption. Not even Abiogenesis has such a silly assertion.

Only Biblical Creationists think magical poofing of something from nothing happened.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Wonderly2, posted 08-27-2007 12:34 AM Wonderly2 has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 980 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 20 of 27 (418226)
08-27-2007 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Wonderly2
08-27-2007 12:34 AM


This is what I cannot understand. If you do not know how a bone forms from birth, something which scientists can actually observe, why would you even start to think you know how it developed from nothing?

The origin of the universe is off topic here. Please address that topic on the appropriate thread.

Have you had a chance to read the forum guidelines? If not, I suggest you take the time to do so.

Whomever it was you were quoting was simply saying that s/he couldn't fully answer the question. (Please try to become familiar with the dBcodes link ... they will allow you to use quote boxes. If you have any questions, the FAQ can help.)

Why do you assume, after having looked at one encyclopedia, that the question can't be answered? Please refer to my prior post that I've recently edited to include a couple useful links.

Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Wonderly2, posted 08-27-2007 12:34 AM Wonderly2 has not yet responded

Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 21 of 27 (418229)
08-27-2007 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by nator
08-26-2007 11:30 PM


Re: selected
Me:
I don't ignore mutations. I just have beef with the "selection" process.
Doesn't selecting something infer intelligence?

You:
Not at all.

Me:
That's a bold statement. I'd like to see some philosophical musings on how you think this is possible.

You:

The environmental conditions into which an organism is born consists of selective pressures that act upon those organisms. For example, in a cold environment, an individual born with a slightly thicker undercoat is likely to reproduce more successfully than other individuals in that population with a thinner undercoat. If more of the thicher coated individuals survive to also reproduce, then a thicker coat tends to spread throughout the population. The thinner coats will become less numerous. And so on.

By the way, the thin coat can become an advantage if the environment becomes warmer, so the entire process can, and has been observed to go the other way if the environmental pressures push it thus.

Me: :laugh: What does telling me a fantasy story have anything to do with my question? Selective pressures? Again selecting needs a selector, i.e, God, Buddha, Mother Earth, etc. Do you mean natural pressures? like heat or cold? I assure you , heat and cold don't select anything. You allude to environmental pressures, but these in themselves are unobserved. Let me clarify before the Clergy hounds attack.
The earth has been the same since darwin's time, relatively. Not too ;much environmental change. add a couple millions of years, then who knows maybe mexico was ice? Do you understand why I disagree?

Me:

If mutations were random then there would be no need for a selection process.

You:
Huh? This doesn't make any sense to me.

Me:
I wouldn't expect a slave to question the master. Anyways, randomness means purposelessness. No divine purpose, just chance, or "natural processes."

Everyone on the planet is born with at least several mutations.

Yes, because Adam sinned and everything went wild. I haven't heard nor read of any positive mutations. Maybe you could provide a link? Or suggested reading material? I suspect it's probably a red herring.

It seems to me that you don't really understand much about what Biologists, rather than anti-science religious people, consider the ToE to actually be.

Why does it always resort to name calling? If i'm so stupid then enlighten me, don't parade my ignorance. Your obviously not so sure of your position if your attacking me through inference. I'm not anti science as you surmise, I really like science. The only "science" that effects my religion is the non operational origins "science." Which is really religion. To many clouded assumptions to even begin to resemble facts.
http://www.creationists.org/evolutionisreligion.html
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion

Furthermore, if you think the ToE is bunk, then what do you think of the hundreds of thousands of Biologists and other scientists over the last 150 or so years who have used the ToE as the foundational theory of their fields?

Appeal to authority? is this necessary? Hitler killed millions of people because he was trying to actualize evolution. Nobody in Germany could stop him, so he must have been right. You seem to think everyone was simultaneously enlightened by this old dogma in the past 150 years. It was only in the past 150 years that America slowly lost it's freedom and was imposed an education system controlled by the state so a minority could eventually push it's totalitarian minded regime starting with crushing individualism and the authority of God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nator, posted 08-26-2007 11:30 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by DrJones*, posted 08-27-2007 1:32 AM Ihategod has responded

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2021
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 22 of 27 (418230)
08-27-2007 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Ihategod
08-27-2007 1:22 AM


Re: selected
I assure you , heat and cold don't select anything.

Sure they do. If the enivroment gets colder/hotter and a species can't evolve to adapt to the cold/heat then the species dies, natural selection in action.


Live every week like it's Shark Week!
Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Ihategod, posted 08-27-2007 1:22 AM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Ihategod, posted 08-27-2007 1:41 AM DrJones* has responded

Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 23 of 27 (418233)
08-27-2007 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by DrJones*
08-27-2007 1:32 AM


Re: selected
Sure they do. If the enivroment gets colder/hotter and a species can't evolve to adapt to the cold/heat then the species dies, natural selection in action.

Why do you always need a little story before it all makes "sense?" We could go off on thousand different rabbit trails on "what-if's" in your fantasy story. If an animal can't find a warm place to hide from the cold, and it dies..., how is that a selection process? Billions of years of evolution has never been observed. Maybe something like 4000 years, probably has. So this has no basis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by DrJones*, posted 08-27-2007 1:32 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by DrJones*, posted 08-27-2007 1:47 AM Ihategod has not yet responded

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2021
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 24 of 27 (418234)
08-27-2007 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Ihategod
08-27-2007 1:41 AM


Re: selected
If an animal can't find a warm place to hide from the cold, and it dies..., how is that a selection process?

It died, therefore it was not selected to live and pass on it's genes.


Live every week like it's Shark Week!
Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Ihategod, posted 08-27-2007 1:41 AM Ihategod has not yet responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1630 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 25 of 27 (418237)
08-27-2007 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Wonderly2
08-27-2007 12:34 AM


Wonderly2 writes:

And the reason I post this thread, is that if science does not even know the complexities involved in the developmental process, than it seems ridiculous for science to question its ultimate origin.

Wonderly2, again, I'm going to recommend Vashgun's ideas to you. We can't help you if you've already made up your mind. Science sucks. God rules. Creationism rules. The end.

Really, if you honestly think that people like me who spent years studying these things only sat around all our days with our thumbs up our butts, I think it is best that you stick with Creationism.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Wonderly2, posted 08-27-2007 12:34 AM Wonderly2 has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3911
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 26 of 27 (418242)
08-27-2007 2:41 AM


Closing until sometime tommorrow
Looks like about 1/2 or more of the messages are off-topic, maybe way off-topic.

The topic originator is apparently interested in the developmental biology origin of bones.

People - Look at your messages. Did they have anything to do with bones?

Any other admin is welcome to reopen this. Chances are, I'll not be available to do it for ~18 hours.

Adminnemooseus


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It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3911
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 27 of 27 (418367)
08-27-2007 8:06 PM


Topic terminally screwed up - Topic perminently closed
Upon further review, I think this topic is terminally screwed up. If some sort of quality discussion is to happen, a new start is needed.

If this topics originator wants to pursue things further, please propose a new topic. Try to make clear what you're talking about and what information you're looking for.

Adminnemooseus


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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Other useful links:

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Admin writes:

It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source


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