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Author Topic:   Does the Christian God Play with Free Will?
John
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 83 (41785)
05-30-2003 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Asgara
05-30-2003 1:56 AM


Re: Free Will?
quote:
I do believe that for free will to exist it could only come about in a deistic universe.
Why?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 05-30-2003 1:56 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Asgara, posted 05-30-2003 3:05 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 83 (41801)
05-30-2003 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Asgara
05-30-2003 3:05 PM


Re: Free Will?
quote:
You would ask that.
Yeah, I'm like that.
If you don't mind my musings....
quote:
In a purely naturalistic universe there is a cause to every effect.
Actually, what you have described is a purely mechanistic universe. This is the 'clockwork' universe favored by western scientists until about a century ago. It is not the same as 'naturalism' which is the simply the idea that everything in the universe can be described in terms of what we observe.
As it happens, it looks like we CANNOT ascribe a cause to every effect. The universe, at very tiny scales, appears to behave randomly.
quote:
AHHHH. I guess I have to make a change to my original musings concerning a deistic universe. A being that started the initial creation and set in motion the physical laws of the universe, but has no further input in this creation, has still left no unconstrained choice.
Yes, indeed. You've discovered the classic problem of free will. This has been an issue with theologians for at least 2 thousand years.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Asgara, posted 05-30-2003 3:05 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Asgara, posted 05-30-2003 5:01 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 83 (41861)
05-31-2003 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Asgara
05-30-2003 5:01 PM


Re: Free Will?
quote:
I have only a rudimentary understanding of quantum mechanics, but would it be fair to say that it is only an "appearance" of randomness?
Only along the same lines as it might be fair to say that my desk 'only has an appearance of being solid.'
The initial response of physicists to quantum mechanics was very much the reaction you describe. "It must be that we just haven't figured out the pattern, yet!!!" This is the root of Einstein's famous quip "God does not play dice." Einstein, though helping to found quantum mechanics, could never accept the consequences of the theories. As it turns out, ( to paraphrase Stephen Hawking ) "God not only plays dice, but is an inveterate gambler." In other words, the research strongly suggests that this randomness is not just apparent.
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 Message 10 by Asgara, posted 05-30-2003 5:01 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 05-31-2003 9:16 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 83 (41889)
06-01-2003 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by NosyNed
05-31-2003 9:16 PM


Re: QM
quote:
Take "spooky action at a distance". But as we learn more it gets worse and worse.
Right-o. Gotta love that old black magic.
quote:
The universe is not only, as someone said, queerer than we imagine, it is queerer than we can imagine.
Oh... its not queerer than I can imagine!
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NosyNed, posted 05-31-2003 9:16 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 06-01-2003 1:12 AM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 83 (41893)
06-01-2003 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
06-01-2003 1:12 AM


Re: QM
quote:
It's not?
Kind-of a joke that was.
quote:
You can manage to wrap your head around the implications of quantum theory?
Yeah.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 06-01-2003 1:12 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NosyNed, posted 06-01-2003 1:35 AM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 83 (41914)
06-01-2003 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Philip
06-01-2003 4:25 AM


Re: Spookiness of Free Will
LOL... if only I could live such great adventures!
Now to business:
quote:
Even the stubborn agnostic (AKA, atheist in 'Free-Will' denial) approves punishment for a man's sins.
It is a mistake to equate the practical requirements of society with something metaphysical-- like sin. We exist inside a culture and we depend upon on it for a great many things necessary for our survival. Certain behaviors threaten the stability of culture, and hence threaten our survival, and so those behaviors are quelled.
quote:
1) Every man's free-will is completely demented damned cursed and tormented, as per the Jim Carey flick, as per the book of Romans in the Bible, as our legal system judges, etc.
While I do agree with the 'man's free will is completely demented' part, you might want to consider Who created that free will.
I don't understand the point of # 2.
# 3 is contradictory. God is not behind whatever is done 'freely.' If he were, it wouldn't have been done 'freely.'
# 4 just plain ain't what the Good Book says.\
# 5 God's redemption is the SHACKLING of free will?
# 6 'k
# 7 You're a whoremonger too!!!!???? Wow.... ummm... this wouldn't have anything to do with Alzheimer's unit would it?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Philip, posted 06-01-2003 4:25 AM Philip has not replied

  
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