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Author Topic:   Converting raw energy into biological energy
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 151 of 314 (419614)
09-03-2007 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Chiroptera
09-03-2007 8:12 PM


Re: You just couldn't wait to drag in the Second Law, could you?
Rob:
You guys keep ignoring the power of this argument.
Chiroptera: Because it is a dumb argument.
So what minimal kind of signal would SETI researchers need to find so as to infer adequately that it was sent by intelligence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Chiroptera, posted 09-03-2007 8:12 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Chiroptera, posted 09-03-2007 8:29 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 155 by sidelined, posted 09-03-2007 8:30 PM Rob has replied
 Message 157 by jar, posted 09-03-2007 8:39 PM Rob has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 314 (419615)
09-03-2007 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Rob
09-03-2007 8:19 PM


Explain the difference for us dummies...
I'll do better than that. I'll assume your premises true for the sake of argument, and allow you to explain the logic in your syllogism. Or to state the premises more clearly.
DNA is like a language.
Humans use language.
Therefore, DNA was created by God.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 8:19 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 314 (419617)
09-03-2007 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Rob
09-03-2007 8:25 PM


Re: You just couldn't wait to drag in the Second Law, could you?
Well, the entire Qur'an in Arabic Morse Code would be good.
And, come to think of it, that would convince me that God created DNA, too. If there were an identical stretch of non-coding DNA found in every human genome that was basically a transcription of the Qur'an in Arabic Morse Code.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 8:25 PM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 154 of 314 (419618)
09-03-2007 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Chiroptera
09-03-2007 8:27 PM


I see immediate problems with your syllogism, but the problem is in the way you state it. Anyway, take it to the other thread please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Chiroptera, posted 09-03-2007 8:27 PM Chiroptera has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 155 of 314 (419619)
09-03-2007 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Rob
09-03-2007 8:25 PM


Re: You just couldn't wait to drag in the Second Law, could you?
Rob
So what minimal kind of signal would SETI researchers need to find so as to infer adequately that it was sent by intelligence?
Prime numbers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 8:25 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 8:36 PM sidelined has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 156 of 314 (419620)
09-03-2007 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by sidelined
09-03-2007 8:30 PM


Re: You just couldn't wait to drag in the Second Law, could you?
Rob:
So what minimal kind of signal would SETI researchers need to find so as to infer adequately that it was sent by intelligence?
Sidelined: Prime numbers.
I've heard that too...
Can we discuss the properties of prime numbers that make them good candidates for intelligence and compare that with DNA?
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 157 of 314 (419621)
09-03-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Rob
09-03-2007 8:25 PM


Seti and Code: Important.
So what minimal kind of signal would SETI researchers need to find so as to infer adequately that it was sent by intelligence?
It would have to be a code that could not be explained by any natural process. Even then, it would only be accepted as possibly sent by intelligence.
If any natural method of creating the code can be demonstrated, then it must be listed as probably NOT from an intelligence.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 8:25 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 10:29 PM jar has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 158 of 314 (419623)
09-03-2007 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Rob
09-03-2007 7:48 PM


It's still a highly theoretical excercise at this point (thank you Leslie Orgel).
Horse feathers.
First, Orgel's review of abiogenesis was simply that ... a review. It summarized what we knew (and what we didn't) in 2004.
And I'm certain Orgel would be horrified to find his work being used as justification for your creo claptrap.
Second, that research is 3 years old ... dog years in a field like abiogenesis ... as I've demonstrated by dropping 4 cites in your lap after only half an hour's research.
DNA, RNA, ATP, ADP, etc do not an organism make... It's a whole system.
Really.
From the article in your OP:
Experts expect an announcement within three to 10 years from someone in the now little-known field of "wet artificial life."
"It's going to be a big deal and everybody's going to know about it," said Mark Bedau, chief operating officer of ProtoLife of Venice, Italy, one of those in the race.
It's like the race that produced the human genome.
From the Protolife website:
ProtoLife is developing automated, high-throughput methods for designing complex chemical systems. We have developed proprietary statistical learning and automated design technology that optimize the benefit from each experiment in a high-throughput scan.
ProtoLife is a participant in PACE, an integrated project funded by the European Commission under the EU 6th Framework Program (FP6). PACE comprises a consortium of 14 European and USA universities and businesses that have joined together to pursue basic research related to development of artificial cells, and to set the foundations for a new generation of information technology based on using evolutionary methods to program chemical functionality.
European Center for Living Technology (ECLT)
ProtoLife is a founding member of the European Center for Living Technology in Venice, Italy, participating in multidisciplinary projects involving the study and development of living technology, i.e., technology that possesses important properties of living systems.
It isn't a question of if, but when.
Just as the bomb wasn't a question of if but when after physicists unveiled the nature of the atom.
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the tools. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world’s first artificial life. Better than it was before. Better . stronger . faster.
What is the smallest number of components known in the smallest living, autonomous, and self replicating life form?
Are your fingers broken?
Can you no longer google?
Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 7:48 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 159 of 314 (419628)
09-03-2007 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Rob
09-03-2007 7:48 PM


Re: a la Behe
Rob writes:
Evaporation and convection...
Intelligent forces?

Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 7:48 PM Rob has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 160 of 314 (419631)
09-03-2007 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by molbiogirl
09-03-2007 8:54 PM


Thanks molbiogirl... the article I linked in the OP can claim it is inevitable all it wants. I got a laugh out of it personally... and I only used it to show that "A metabolism that extracts raw materials from the environment as food and then changes it into energy." is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome.
You act like it's already been done from a to z. And so do they...
The best part is that if they do, they'll be waiting for natural selection to take over, though they admit it will be a feat to even keep it alive.
Let's assume they do it... it'll be a hoot to watch biochemical engineers fool the public into believing that they've proved life doesn't need intelligent guidance.
Actually, it won't be funny at all...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by molbiogirl, posted 09-03-2007 8:54 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 161 of 314 (419632)
09-03-2007 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Doddy
09-03-2007 9:29 PM


Re: a la Behe
Doddy:
Intelligent forces?
No...
And neither has convection or evaporation been shown to contribute to the arrival of life, though it is postulated to have happened is some manner by all sorts of models.
A model developed by intelligent agents is not an organism that is testable as proof of unintelligent guidance.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Doddy, posted 09-03-2007 9:29 PM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 162 of 314 (419633)
09-03-2007 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by jar
09-03-2007 8:39 PM


Re: Seti and Code: Important.
jar:
If any natural method of creating the code can be demonstrated, then it must be listed as probably NOT from an intelligence.
Well, you can make a DNA sequence in a lab jar... Behe says in 'Darwins Black Box' that
"Any undergraduate can read the instruction manual and prouduce a long piece of DNA -perhpas the gene coding for a known protein- in a day or two".
But that really only shows intelligent design. You do think biochemists are intelligent don't you?
Behe says,
"Making the molecules of life by chemical processes outside of a cell is actually rather easy. Any competent chemist can buy some chemicals from a supply company, weigh them in the correct proportion, dissolve them in an appropriate solvent, heat them in a flask for a predetermined amount of time, and purify the desired chemical produce away from unwanted chemicals produced by side reactions .
Most readers will quickly see the problem. There were no chemists four billion years ago. Neither were there any chemical supply houses, distillation flasks, nor any of the many other devices that the modern chemist uses daily in his or her laboratory, and which are necessary to get good results . "
Behe goes on to say,
"As an analogy, suppose a famous chef said that random natural processes could produce a chocolate cake. In his effort to prove it, we would not begrudge him taking whole plants - including wheat, cacao, and sugar cane - and placing them near a hot spring, in the hope that the heated water would extract the right materials and cook them. But we would become a little wary if the chef bought refined flour, cocoa, and sugar at the store, saying that he didn't have time to wait for the hot water to extract the components from the plants. We would shake our heads if he then switched his experiment from a hot spring to an electric oven, to "speed things up." And we would walk away if he then measured the amounts of the components carefully, mixed them in a bowl, placed them in a pan, and baked them in his oven. The results would have nothing to do with his original idea that natural processes could produce a cake"
(Darwins Black Box pp. 168-169).
You can also make a coded radio message and send it into outer space. But that really only shows intelligent design.
jar:
It would have to be a code that could not be explained by any natural process. Even then, it would only be accepted as possibly sent by intelligence.
Tell that to the people funding SETI...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jar, posted 09-03-2007 8:39 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by jar, posted 09-03-2007 10:38 PM Rob has replied
 Message 165 by molbiogirl, posted 09-03-2007 10:40 PM Rob has replied

Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 163 of 314 (419634)
09-03-2007 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Rob
09-03-2007 10:13 PM


Re: a la Behe
But you acknowledge, Rob, that convection and evaporation can get water to the top of a hill? Without an intelligent pump?
It addresses the thermodynamics example you brought up earlier, not life.

Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 10:13 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 164 of 314 (419635)
09-03-2007 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Rob
09-03-2007 10:29 PM


Re: Seti and Code: Important.
Tell that to the people funding SETI...
Too funny. That is exactly how they test signals. To be considered other than natural there must be no way that it could be natural. If there is a natural explanation then it cannot be considered indication of intelligence.
The rest of your post is simply more nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 10:29 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 11:15 PM jar has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 165 of 314 (419636)
09-03-2007 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Rob
09-03-2007 10:29 PM


Behe's Balderdash
"Making the molecules of life by chemical processes outside of a cell is actually rather easy. Any competent chemist can buy some chemicals from a supply company, weigh them in the correct proportion, dissolve them in an appropriate solvent, heat them in a flask for a predetermined amount of time, and purify the desired chemical produce away from unwanted chemicals produced by side reactions .
Most readers will quickly see the problem. There were no chemists four billion years ago. Neither were there any chemical supply houses, distillation flasks, nor any of the many other devices that the modern chemist uses daily in his or her laboratory, and which are necessary to get good results . "
Oh. So it's easy now.
What was with all the bitching and moaning upthread then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Rob, posted 09-03-2007 10:29 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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