Converting raw energy into biological energy

Let me ask you this, Rob.What is the simplest form of life?A bacterium?In that case, you're right. We haven't created life from simple precursors. We're close, but there's work to do.We have, however, the bits and pieces that are necessary:Polymerization, RNA ligases, RNA capping, RNA phosphorylation, RNA cleavage, ribose formation, nucleoside formation, peptide bond formation, amide bond formation, membrane formation.Remember. Amide and peptide bonds are the only thing standing between a puddle of chemicals and a protein. Sugars and nucleosides are the only things standing between that very same puddle and a quaternary code.And, contrary to your assertion that we've only "postulated" "insufficient" components, I would remind you that a virus is nothing more than a tiny package of DNA encapsulated in an envelope. And a prokaryote isn't much more complicated than a virus: some DNA, some RNA, some plasma and a membrane.Hardly the millions of components you seem to think necessary for an "organism".

Horse feathers.First, Orgel's review of abiogenesis was simply that ... a review. It summarized what we knew (and what we didn't) in 2004.And I'm certain Orgel would be horrified to find his work being used as justification for your creo claptrap.Second, that research is 3 years old ... dog years in a field like abiogenesis ... as I've demonstrated by dropping 4 cites in your lap after only half an hour's research. Really.From the article in your OP: It's like the race that produced the human genome.From the Protolife website: It isn't a question of if, but when.Just as the bomb wasn't a question of if but when after physicists unveiled the nature of the atom.Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the tools. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world’s first artificial life. Better than it was before. Better . stronger . faster. Are your fingers broken?Can you no longer google?Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

Oh. So it's easy now.What was with all the bitching and moaning upthread then?

Percy ...I didn't bother correcting Rob earlier ... I knew what he was getting at (since he tried this exact same routine over on the ribozyme thread ... right down to the Second Law, IC, etc.).Rob, a cell does not require ATP to produce ATP using ATP synthase.A cell requires an proton gradient. Which is established by NADH.When the NADH runs out, ATP synthesis stops.Capiche?And before ATP/NADH/GTP/etc. existed, there was thermosynthesis, i.e. free energy gain from thermal cycling.The first organisms (what could rightfully be called life aka prokaryotic cells) obtained their energy by a first protein named pF1 that worked on a thermal variation of the binding change mechanism of today's ATP sythase enzyme.In other words, the reactions necessary to assemble prebiotic compounds (and then protocells and then prokaryotic cells) are thermodynamically favorable.And, no, this is not up for debate, Rob.If there are certain reagents in a beaker (or in a prebiotic pool), they will react. Period. Full stop. It's a matter of physics. That's what thermodynamically favorable means.I can't stress this enough, Rob.If the reagents are there, the reaction will occur.And, as you acknowledged last night, "making the molecules of life" is easy.Thermodynamically favorable reactions are the reason it's easy.All you can argue, really, is that the necessary constituents for assembling "the molecules of life" were not present on prebiotic Earth.Because, if you admit that those elements were there, then you will have to admit that they reacted.The elements have no choice, Rob.Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

Wow.You don't read anything I post, do you? C'mon. Admit it.Prebiotic Formation of ADP and ATP from AMP, Calcium Phosphates and Cyanate in Aqueous Solution Origins of Life and Evolution of Biospheres Vol. 29, No. 5 The data is hardly limited, Rob. Grow a pair and dip into pubmed sometime. I don't mind doing additional research on pF1. Expect the cites tomorrow. I repeat. Behe said "the molecules of life" are easy to make.Are you now disagreeing with Behe?

[sigh]A man who doesn't know how to google.Pubmed, Rob. Look in pubmed.Or, if pubmed is too much for you to handle, try scholar.google.Have you even tried to read the giant chunk from that paper that I posted upthread? OK. Now I know you don't bother reading my posts.One more time.To produce ATP, a chloroplast does not use ATP. It uses NADPH and FADH.The "factory" you are referring to runs on NADPH and FADH to set up a proton gradient and to move electrons.(An E. coli uses NADH.)That's on wiki. You can find wiki, can't you Rob?

From the paper you claim to have read: Yamagata, 1999. That's the paper I cited, Rob.

Adenosine IS adenine. A chloroplast is irrelevant to abiogenesis.Protocells don't generate energy using chloroplasts.Edited by molbiogirl, : expletive deleted

Oh, you are going to be disappointed!Prebiotic Adenine Revisited: Eutectics and Photochemistry, Leslie Orgel, Origins of Life and Evolution of Biospheres, Volume 34, Number 4, August, 2004 Orgel disagrees!Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.

Btw, Rob.AMP = Adenosine Mono PhosphateThat means (pay close attention now) Adenine + Ribose + PhosphateBehe is talking about the synthesis of AMP, not just the synthesis of adenine. My earlier cite (re: aqueous solution) stands.And Orgel liked the study I cited too!

Thermosynthesis as energy source for the RNA World: A model for the bioenergetics of the origin of life, Anthonie W.J. Muller, Biosystems, Volume 82, Issue 1, October 2005, Pages 93-102Since you seem to have trouble finding the appropriate cites, I will be generous with my snippets: Hey! Lookee! Your favorite real scientist! Leslie Orgel!More pF1 research to come ...Oh. Btw, Rob. Ditto.

Kuresu, I'll tell you why Rob hasn't moved beyond the abstract.He's too cheap to register with the publisher. Read Orgel's article! Or don't you have $32?

eee hee hee!Yeah, Rob, I know wahat (sic) "if" means.That the best you got?

Sulphate metabolism among thermophiles and hyperthermophiles in natural aquatic systems, A.N. Roychoudhury, Biochemical Society Transactions (2004) Volume 32, part 2 Sulphate reduction.Hmmmmm.The Bacteria of the Sulphur Cycle [and Discussion], N. Pfennig, F. Widdel, J. R. Postgate, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences, Vol. 298, No. 1093, Sulphur Bacteria (Sep. 13, 1982), pp. 433-441 ATP.Now where could I get my hands on some prebiotic ATP?More cites to come!

Now, hold on a second here, Kuresu. I don't think we have Rob on record re: the origins of life.Rob. I think we all know by now that abiogenesis isn't your cup of tea.So. In your opinion. How exactly did we get here?