Converting raw energy into biological energy

Let's take a step back here... Ok the truck is a bad analogy. I agree as I conceded in my last response. But hold on...You're assuming the existence of the parts to begin with. That is not what the evidence shows.The evidence shows that the biological parts are manufactured. Proteins are not formed by chance.First, they are coded in the DNA, they are then transcribed from an RNA replica of the particular DNA sequence for that protein (so the RNA is itself transcribed). Then the amino acid chain assembled within the Ribosome is shaped into the proper three dimensional structure, and it is then transported to the area it is needed.And they have to be put together in the proper sequence. Electric motors for example (like the bacterial flagellum) are built in sequence as the genes are expressed. There's a lot more going on here than parts from nowhere floating around in an accidental surfactant bubble and just 'coming together under me'.Let's take a look at the flagellum for a moment just as an example:Minnich on the question: ”What is the most remarkable aspect of the bacterial flagellum?’ (Scott A. Minnich Ph.D., Associate Professor of Microbiology at the University of Idaho. He was an assistant professor at Tulane University, and did postdoctoral research with Austin Newton at Princeton University and Arthur Aronson at Purdue University.Minnich’s research interests are temperature regulation of Y. enterocolita gene expression and coordinate reciprocal expression of flagellar and virulence genes. He is widely published in technical journals, including the ”Journal of Bacteriology’, ”Molecular Microbiology’, ”Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences’, and the ”Journal of Microbiological Methods’.)Doddy: If it's so easy, then why the appearent obstacles in this aritcle? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/ap_on_sc/artificial_life Oh I see, it must also be able to multiply... I wonder what trigers that cascade?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

molbiogirl from post 98: Hmmm I can't find it anywhere...I found this little gem by Orgel (a real scientist). And it is from 2004. Did I miss the adenine formula from 1999 you are so exited about on pages 102 through 104? It's a PDF so you'll have to look at it yourself.He covered a lot of different modes of conceivalbe synthesis, and it looked pretty bleak to me. Seems a confrirmation of Behe until you prove something...Taylor & Francis - Harnessing the Power of KnowledgeYour assertions have proved fallacious before molbiogirl; self replicating enzymes, viruses, and now AMP? Where do you get your information?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Well I appriciate that Kuresu. I just hope I don't have to eat any words. I hate crow...Unfortunately, I cannot view it. The font is so large that it would be impossible to navigate.Perhaps you can educate me on the proper computer wizardry to make it legible, or simply copy and paste the relevant citations here.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

When I click the link you gave, an HTMl doc comes up. No adobe...I'm going to try registering with SprignerLink.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Molbiogirl: How is the factory built? that was the point... Not what it runs on...And was that article Kuresu found on adenosine or adenine? Because Behe was talking about adenine.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Molbiogirl: Fifteen years as of oct 11 of this year. I only have eyes for her.

Guess I'll have to wait until morning... yawn

molbiogirl:I think I see the problem and it's no big deal really...Look carefully at part of what I quoted here: http://EvC Forum: Converting raw energy into biological energy -->EvC Forum: Converting raw energy into biological energy (Behe 'DBB' pg 149)Behe's point is that adenine is added unnaturally by chemists, and that in that case, yes AMP is easy to synthesize.But they have failed to show that adenine was present in (as orgel confesses here: Taylor & Francis - Harnessing the Power of Knowledge pg 102-104) under relevant or plausible prebiotic conditions.C'mon Molbiogirl, your the PhD here right?

molbiogirl: Are you invoking belief again based upon unproven assumptions?What protocells?

Percy: Science is believed by most to be empericism. It is theorized, tested, and confirmed (ie. it is proved). We then have what we call evidence.That is what good science is...What you're talking about is theory, and that is tentative. Because based upon the evidence, we can make all kinds of theories.As I said in message 1: Percy:And I have since repositioned the question to reflect the real problem and I am told it is irrelevant becase of the a priori fact that it happened in some form as yet unknown. A position which you appearently support.The real problem is that the processes which assemble the known energy conversion systems, are themselves built with processes that depend upon the production of ATP. That is what the evidence shows.You are assuming the existence of protocells and abiotic chemical soups that are not relevant to current biological function. And you have no proof or evidence for these systems. They are merely assumed to be true, because otherwise, life's appearance is illogical and not thermodynamically favored by a material cause.Lewontin is well known for his belief in evolution. And he is honest about what it is, and why he proceeds. (Wiki-evolution /Richard Lewontin, 1997. Billions and billions of demons, The New York Review, p. 31, 9 January 1997) (Richard Lewontin / “Testing the Theory of Natural Selection” Nature March 24, 1972 p.181)

molbiogirl: No it doesn't... and I'll be answering that other reply shorlty...Adenine + Ribose + Phosphate = AMPWhere'd you get the adenine? That comes in my next response...

Molbiogirl: Orgel writes: [b]"Recent studies support an earlier suggestion[b/] that, if adenine was formed prebiotically on the primitive earth, eutectic freezing of hydrogen cyanide solutions is likely to have been important. Here we revisit the suggestion that the synthesis of adenine may have involved the photochemical conversion of the tetramer of hydrogen cyanide in eutectic solution to 4-amino-5-cyano-imidazole. This would make possible a reaction sequence that does not require the presence of free ammonia. It is further suggested that the reaction of cyanoacetylene with cyanate in eutectic solution to give cytosine might have proceeded in parallel with adenine synthesis."Rob: Molbiogirl: Did you even read what Orgel said?Where did he say that it was found or tested or proven?He said, if it was formed prebiotically... Do you know wahat the word if means. Or is it like the word is that some folks in high positions seem to have trouble with?Seriously!I am far from dissapointed...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

And that is why it is hopelessly metaphysical as Lewontin said.

Do any of you have one shred of evidence of a prebiotic organism that is not totally theoretical ie. non-existent?And theorized evidence is not evidence...I mean evidence in the real world, (emperical) ie. the fossil record or discovered elsewhere, for any form of prebiotic organism?I ask, because there is an earthload of evidnce for biotic organisms. And they're not made the way all of these masses of data and theoretical research assume and predict that prebiotic organisms were made.What good is a 'scientific' prediction (theory) that cannot be tested?And you know the best part...?I don't have to say, 'if these bilogical organism were able to synthsise ATP or adenine or any other structure or enzyme et al... then perhaps it was a result of this or that bla bla bla...'No, I don't have to say that... Because they actually exist! And they do synthesize this and that, and we have evidence of that, and that, and that, and that, bla bla bla bla etc.And you know what else... it's proven science. It's not tentative.Science is a search for proof. We start with theory and evidence. We then seek to find a match.All you have is theory. No evidence and no match.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

The question is...'Why do you assume prebiotic organisms to begin with?