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Author | Topic: Converting raw energy into biological energy | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
kuresu Member (Idle past 2541 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
You fail to understand.
By discovering possible pathways we have evidence of how it may have actually happened.
Why do you assume that there were prebiotic organisms?
No one does. It's a contradiction. Nice straw man.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2541 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
You do realize that all those articles that have been cited aren't theories?
Again, you have a straw man.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2669 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Why do you assume that there were prebiotic organisms? Now, hold on a second here, Kuresu. I don't think we have Rob on record re: the origins of life. Rob. I think we all know by now that abiogenesis isn't your cup of tea. So. In your opinion. How exactly did we get here?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I found this while wandering and can't remember if it was shown as one of the links yet.
The geological record of life 3500 MA ago: Coping with the rigors of a young earth during late accretion It shows that we can trace life back at least to the period of late heavy bombardment. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Thermophiles:
Here's what I said in the OP: Molbiogirl and Doddy were both suggesting (presupposing) that biological function had a precursor to fermentation, photosynthesis and respiration. But there is no such precursor found in the fossil record or anywhere else that I am aware of. They and Matt P, had been referring to self replicating enzymes that rely on these systems of energy conversion and other cell processes for which they exist, and are therefore not self replicating. I made the point to molbiogirl that they are not self anything... In message 190 you were talking about thermosynthesis, i.e. free energy gain from thermal cycling. Now that I'd like to see. Now you're being revisionist, and invoking respiration that is still ATP dependant, and also in need of andenine for it's usual biological DNA and catalyitic functions? Slow down... you always latch on to a response too soon. First it was self replicating DNA, and then it was viruses, then adenine was adenosine, and now this? Stop smoking those prebiotic chemicals. As I said to jar ealier... who cares what the source of energy is? Your example is hardly prebiotic. But it is the best example as far as biological life goes, since it is the simplest. You know, I really want to express my love for you guys, and that of the truth, but you've forced me to be quite adament. You're not very nice... Edited by Rob, : No reason given. Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Kuresu:
You do realize that all those articles that have been cited aren't theories? Yes, absolutely... They are real research... done on real theories. But not real evidence. And the research done cannot itself be the evidence. Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Is evidence neccessary for credulity? I dunno, you tell me -- you're the one who believes that snakes talk people into eating fruit and people turn into pillars of salt. I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger
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kuresu Member (Idle past 2541 days) Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
For the last time, the research is being done on potential pathways for the genesis of AMP and ATP and other key molecules.
The potential pathways are evidence of how it might have happened. Why is this so hard to understand? Its not evidence on how it did happen, no one is claiming that. Its evidence on how it might have happened.
And the research done cannot itself be the evidence
Why?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2669 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
invoking respiration that is still ATP dependant (sic) Dear. Anaerobic sulphate reduction is not respiration.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Molbiogirl:
Dear. Anaerobic sulphate reduction is not respiration. Oh dear... now what'l I do?
Many of the hyperthermophiles Archea require elemental sulfur for growth. Some are anaerobes that use the sulfur as an electron acceptor during respiration instead of oxygen. ( Thermophile - Wikipedia )
Cell respiration is a process that arose early in the evolution of life. The first cells that experienced respiration lived in an environment void of oxygen. Some of these first organisms were called thermophiles ( Yahoo ) Molbiogirl... is your Phd in molecular biology? Or do you even have one?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Rob:
And the research done cannot itself be the evidence Kuresu: Why? Because I could do researrch on how the pink unicorn created the universe and call it evidence. And lo and behold... I could make it internally coherent too! They would buy it by the millions....
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2669 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
About Us - Foresight Institute
We define a molecular heat engine as a molecule that can convert heat into free energy when thermally cycled or when placed in a thermal gradient. A detailed model for a molecular heat engine is constituted by the pF1 enzyme, a proposed progenitor of the homologous (1) alpha and beta sub units of the F1 moiety of the contemporary ATP synthase enzyme (2-4). In the thermosynthesis model for the origin of life, pF1 synthesizes peptide and phosphate bonds by creating a local environment in its enzymatic cavity that permits dehydration reactions. The product containing the bond has a higher free energy in water (5), and can therefore, because of energy conservation, not directly be released. Instead, it remains strongly bound, entering the medium only upon a thermal unfolding of pF1. The binding change mechanism as effected by contemporary ATP synthase (6) is identified as a relic of this so-defined thermosynthesis mechanism. In the model the thermal cycling is attributed to - macroscopic - convection of the medium in which the pF1 is suspended.Consider as example present day F1 ATP synthase as a heat engine. The presence of nucleotides increases its unfolding temperature by ~10C. The delta H for the unfolding of the individual alpha and beta subunits is ~660 kJ/mole (7-8). At an unfolding temperature of 60C (330K) the Carnot ratio predicts an available work of (delta T / T) delta H = (10 / 330) 660 = 20 kJ/mole, a value comparable with the free energy of a peptide and phosphate bond. Using only one enzyme to begin with, thermosynthesis by a molecular heat engine allows a very simple model for the emergence of the bioenergetic chemiosmotic machinery and, more generally, for the origin of life (2-4). Abiotic synthesis of organic compounds from carbon disulfide under hydrothermal conditions, Rushdi AI, Simoneit BR, Astrobiology, 2005 Dec;5(6):749-69
Abiotic formation of organic compounds under hydrothermal conditions is of interest to bio, geo-, and cosmochemists. Oceanic sulfur-rich hydrothermal systems have been proposed as settings for the abiotic synthesis of organic compounds. Carbon disulfide is a common component of magmatic and hot spring gases, and is present in marine and terrestrial hydrothermal systems. Thus, its reactivity should be considered as another carbon source in addition to carbon dioxide in reductive aqueous thermosynthesis. We have examined the formation of organic compounds in aqueous solutions of carbon disulfide and oxalic acid at 175 degrees C for 5 and 72 h. The synthesis products from carbon disulfide in acidic aqueous solutions yielded a series of organic sulfur compounds. The major compounds after 5 h of reaction included dimethyl polysulfides (54.5%), methyl perthioacetate (27.6%), dimethyl trithiocarbonate (6.8%), trithianes (2.7%), hexathiepane (1.4%), trithiolanes (0.8%), and trithiacycloheptanes (0.3%). The main compounds after 72 h of reaction consisted of trithiacycloheptanes (39.4%), pentathiepane (11.6%), tetrathiocyclooctanes (11.5%), trithiolanes (10.6%), tetrathianes (4.4%), trithianes (1.2%), dimethyl trisulfide (1.1%), and numerous minor compounds. It is concluded that the abiotic formation of aliphatic straight-chain and cyclic polysulfides is possible under hydrothermal conditions and warrants further studies. Sulphur. Thermosynthesis. Starting to get the picture, precious? More cites to come!
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Molbiogirl:
Starting to get the picture, precious? I saw it a long time ago... Let me know when it's more than a model (ie. when you actually have the picture). But there's no doubt you're a believer! You look at proposals as though they are evidence! ps. I didn't bother to highlight the relevant words like proposed and such... ...and don't call me precious.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 864 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Rob writes: Molbiogirl... is your Phd in molecular biology? Or do you even have one? I'd like to ask you the same question Rob. So is your PhD in molecular biology? Or do you even have one? (sorry mods, couldn't resist) If your PhD is in the Pre-Socratic style of rhetoric, I'd ask for a refund. Edited by anglagard, : sophistic ruminations Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Never claimed to have one...
I admitted a long time ago that I am a truck driver; 37yrs old, 3 kids, married, high school degree (from a continuation school), 10th grade biology was as far as I went. Never cared much for school. Always got the impression they thought they knew more than they actually do... I've moderated that attitude some. I found that there are some people who actually tell the truth. So I joined! You gotta point?
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