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Author Topic:   Converting raw energy into biological energy
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 256 of 314 (420037)
09-05-2007 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Rob
09-05-2007 11:12 PM


That's Dr. Molbiogirl To You
Aerobic sulfate reduction in microbial mats, DE Canfield and DJ Des Marais, Science, Vol 251, Issue 5000, 1471-1473
Measurements of bacterial sulfate reduction and dissolved oxygen (O2) in hypersaline bacterial mats from Baja California, Mexico, revealed that sulfate reduction occurred consistently within the well-oxygenated photosynthetic zone of the mats. This evidence that dissimilatory sulfate reduction can occur in the presence of O2 challenges the conventional view that sulfate reduction is a strictly anaerobic process. At constant temperature, the rates of sulfate reduction in oxygenated mats during daytime were similar to rates in anoxic mats at night: thus, during a 24-hour cycle, variations in light and O2 have little effect on rates of sulfate reduction in these mats.
Huh.
In the presence of oxygen.
This sulphur thing is looking better and better.
More cites to come!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 11:12 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 11:32 PM molbiogirl has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 257 of 314 (420038)
09-05-2007 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by molbiogirl
09-05-2007 11:30 PM


Re: That's Dr. Molbiogirl To You
Perhpas this would be a good time for some of you to actually look at evidence.
Proven evidence!
Just click the play button on the guy writing on the chaulkboard: Abiogenesis
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by molbiogirl, posted 09-05-2007 11:30 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 258 of 314 (420039)
09-05-2007 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by kuresu
09-05-2007 11:04 PM


metaphysical...
Richard Lewontin (b. 1929) PhD Zoology Alexander Agassiz Research Professor at Harvard University
Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection in particular is hopelessly metaphysical, according to the rules of etiquette laid down in the Logic of Scientific Inquiry and widely believed in by practicing scientists who bother to think about the problem. The first rule for any scientific hypothesis ought to be that it is at least possible to conceive of an observation that would contradict the theory. For what good is a theory that is guaranteed by its internal logical structure to agree with all conceivable observations, irrespective of the real structure of the world? If scientists are going to use logically unbeatable theories about the world, they might as well give up natural science and take up religion. Yet is that not exactly the situation with regard to Darwinism? The theory of evolution by natural selection states that changes in the inherited characters of species occur, giving rise to differentiation in space and time, because different genetical types leave different numbers of offspring in different environments... Such a theory can never be falsified, for it asserts that some environmental difference created the conditions for natural selection of a new character. It is existentially quantified so that the failure to find the environmental factor proves nothing, except that one has not looked hard enough. Can one really imagine observations about nature that would disprove natural selection as a cause of the difference in bill size? The theory of natural selection is then revealed as metaphysical rather than scientific. Natural selection explains nothing because it explains everything.
( “Testing the Theory of Natural Selection” Nature March 24, 1972 p.181 )
We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
( Lewontin "Billions and Billions of Demons" )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2007 11:04 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2007 11:50 PM Rob has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 259 of 314 (420040)
09-05-2007 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Rob
09-05-2007 11:41 PM


Re: metaphysical...
Your point?
That someone disagrees? Wow, there's always somebody who disagrees.
Now then, what the hell does this have to do with the topic, which I believe you made about how "raw" energy can catalyze biological reactions?
Even in your own thread you can't stay on topic. Amazing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 11:41 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 09-05-2007 11:56 PM kuresu has not replied
 Message 263 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:22 AM kuresu has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 260 of 314 (420042)
09-05-2007 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by kuresu
09-05-2007 11:50 PM


Re: metaphysical...
He also has been shown that those quotes were pulled out of context and misapplied.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2007 11:50 PM kuresu has not replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 261 of 314 (420045)
09-06-2007 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
09-05-2007 11:56 PM


Re: metaphysical...
jar:
He also has been shown that those quotes were pulled out of context and misapplied.
What a bunch of crap!
http://EvC Forum: God caused or uncaused? -->EvC Forum: God caused or uncaused?
I read your little link: Quote: Richard Lewontin ) and lewontin said nothing about those quotes.
If you and Kuresu want to pander to the mods for action, at least be honest about it. It has to do with some Jehovah's Witness...
The quotes I gave are quite relevant considering that lewontin is a staunch believer in evolution. At least he is honest about why... Or should I say, that he understands why?
Now put up or shut up!
Do you guys believe in abiogenesis (chemical evolution) or not?
There's certainly no evidence of any prebiotic organisms...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 09-05-2007 11:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 12:21 AM Rob has replied
 Message 265 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2007 12:26 AM Rob has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 262 of 314 (420046)
09-06-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Rob
09-06-2007 12:11 AM


Re: metaphysical...
I did explain it Rob in Message 157, Message 163 and Message 171.
Metaphysics and Supernatural are irrelevant, unimportant and have NOTHING to do with the topic.
If there are natural explanations we go with them. If we have no explanation it goes into the unknown folder.
Asserting that God or the Designer did it carries exactly the same information content as saying that pink faeries did it.
No I do not believe in either abiogenesis or chemical evolution. The evidence is absolute that abiogenesis happened. That is not a belief but a conclusion. The question is "How abiogenesis happened" and pink faeries or the designer are not relevant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:11 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:27 AM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 263 of 314 (420047)
09-06-2007 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by kuresu
09-05-2007 11:50 PM


Re: metaphysical...
Kuresu:
Your point?
That someone disagrees? Wow, there's always somebody who disagrees.
Now then, what the hell does this have to do with the topic, which I believe you made about how "raw" energy can catalyze biological reactions?
Even in your own thread you can't stay on topic. Amazing.
It has everything to do with it...
What raw energy that can catalyze biological reactions?
As lewontin said, it is hopelessly metaphysical...
And he's an evolutionist!
At least he's honest Kuresu... and not following his faith blindly!
Think...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2007 11:50 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2007 12:30 AM Rob has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 264 of 314 (420048)
09-06-2007 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Rob
09-05-2007 11:32 PM


Conditions of Prebiotic Earth
Here's the evidence for a prebiotic Earth that you were looking for upthread:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/...ext/99016883/HTMLSTART
In the 1960s the NASA Exobiology Program began support for initial research on chemical evolution. This became a vigorous program, utilizing the concurrently evolving state-of-the-science expertise and instrumentation for analyses of organic matter in ancient terrestrial sediments, meteorites, and lunar samples ... Over the past 25 years, organic geochemistry has expanded into a myriad of research areas and has built a vast database for biomarkers indicative of biochemistry. This information is available to aid in the search for tracers of prebiotic organic chemistry and of extinct and extant life in samples from the solar system.
The original term applied to chemical biomarkers was chemical fossils (Eglinton and Calvin, [1967]), which evolved to biological markers (Hunt, [1979]), and was then contracted to the currently popular term biomarker ... Biomarkers can also be identified (if present) in macro- and microfossils by comparing their molecular composition with that of the embedding sediment (Otto and Simoneit, [2001]). Amino acids and other labile biochemicals have been used as indicators or evidence for biological activity and preservation in the more recent geological record and in meteorites (Abelson, [1954]; Engel et al., [1993]; Mitterer, [1993]). Cyclic and branched hydrocarbons, acids, and heterocompounds (e.g., terpenoids) are generally stable over long periods, and thus are useful indicators of biosynthesis in the older geological record. The utility of biomarkers as indicators of biogenic, paleoenvironmental, and geochemical processes on Earth has been widely accepted (Mackenzie et al., [1982]; Johns, [1986]; Simoneit et al., [1986], and references therein; Brassell, [1992]; Imbus and McKirdy, [1993]; Mitterer, [1993]; Simoneit, [1998]).
The biomarker concept is illustrated herein with bacterial lipids that elucidate the development and evolution of oxygenic photosynthesis and aerobiosis, because these processes are at the heart of the modern carbon cycle and sustain complex life (Simoneit et al., [1998]; Summons et al., [1996]). Bacterial mats from modern hot springs (e.g., Yellowstone National Park) have lipid distributions with striking similarities to preserved hydrocarbons from the Proterozoic and Archean. Points of resemblance include abundant low molecular weight, linear and simple branched alkanes, acyclic isoprenoids such as phytenes and phytol, and carotenoids (Dobson et al., [1988]; Ward et al., [1989]; Shiea et al., [1990]; Zeng et al., [1992]
And this guy ties sulphur loving protocells to thermosynthesis ... Extra added bonus? Those membranes Doddy talked about earlier!
The emergence of life from iron monosulphide bubbles at a submarine hydrothermal redox and pH front, M. J . RUS S ELL & A. J . HALL Journal of the Geological Society, London, Vol. 154, 1997, pp. 377-402
Here we argue that life emerged on Earth from a redox and pH front at c. 4.2 Ga. This front occurred where hot (c. 150C), extremely reduced, alkaline, bisulphide-bearing, submarine seepage waters interfaced with the acid, warm (c. 90C), iron-bearing Hadean ocean. The low pH of the ocean was imparted by the ten bars of CO2 considered to dominate the Hadean atmosphere/hydrosphere.
Disequilibrium between the two solutions was maintained by the spontaneous precipitation of a colloidal FeS membrane. Iron monosulphide bubbles comprising this membrane were inflated by the hydrothermal solution upon sulphide mounds at the seepage sites.
Our hypothesis is that the FeS membrane, laced with nickel, acted as a semipermeable catalytic boundary between the two fluids, encouraging synthesis of organic anions by hydrogenation and carboxylation of hydrothermal organic primers. The ocean provided carbonate, phosphate, iron, nickel and protons; the hydrothermal solution was the source of ammonia, acetate, HS, H2 and tungsten, as well as minor concentrations of organic sulphides and perhaps cyanide and acetaldehyde.
The mean redox potential across the membrane, with the energy to drive synthesis, would have approximated to 300 millivolts. The generation of organic anions would have led to an increase in osmotic pressure within the FeS bubbles. Thus osmotic pressure could take over from hydraulic pressure as the driving force for distension, budding and reproduction of the bubbles.
Condensation of the organic molecules to polymers, particularly organic sulphides, was driven by pyrophosphate hydrolysis.
Regeneration of pyrophosphate from the monophosphate in the membrane was facilitated by protons contributed from the Hadean ocean. This was the first use by a metabolizing system of protonmotive force (driven by natural pH) which also would have amounted to c. 300 millivolts.
Proton motive force is the universal energy transduction mechanism of life. Taken together with the redox potential across the membrane, the total electrochemical and chemical energy available for protometabolism amounted to a continuous supply at more than half a volt.
The role of the iron sulphide membrane in keeping the two solutions separated was appropriated by the newly synthesized organic sulphide polymers. This organic take-over of the membrane material led to the miniaturization of the metabolizing system. Information systems to govern replication could have developed penecontemporaneously in this same milieu. But iron, sulphur and phosphate, inorganic components of earliest life, continued to be involved in metabolism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 11:32 PM Rob has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 265 of 314 (420049)
09-06-2007 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Rob
09-06-2007 12:11 AM


Re: metaphysical...
There's certainly no evidence of any prebiotic organisms
No shit! Prebiotic organism is a contradiction in terms.
An organism is biotic by definition.
Prebiotic suggests "before life". Organisms are life!
Are you having fun making stupid arguments? I can't believe you are ignorant on this anymore. You are stupid if you think that prebiotic organism is not a contradiction in terms.
Something cannot be before life and be life at the same time. YOu know, that favorite logic law of yours?
Please don't make this stupid argument anymore, you know it's wrong, you know it's a contradiction.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:11 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 266 of 314 (420050)
09-06-2007 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
09-06-2007 12:21 AM


Re: metaphysical...
jar:
If there are natural explanations we go with them. If we have no explanation it goes into the unknown folder.
Natural explanations of what jar? What evidence do you have of abiogenesis that can be explaned naturally since before you can explain it, you must show it!
jar:
Metaphysics and Supernatural are irrelevant, unimportant and have NOTHING to do with the topic.
What?
That's what abiogenesis is; metaphysical, as Lewontin said...
jar:
No I do not believe in either abiogenesis or chemical evolution. The evidence is absolute that abiogenesis happened.
Need I say a word?
Unfortunately yes!
What evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 12:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 12:33 AM Rob has replied
 Message 270 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2007 12:38 AM Rob has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 267 of 314 (420051)
09-06-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Rob
09-06-2007 12:22 AM


Re: metaphysical...
Look, it's not metaphysical if we can figure out potential pathways for it to happen in pre-biotic earth.
Guess what, we've been figuring out potential pathways. Molbiogirl and others have given you several sources which document this.
You're the one who needs to think about what you're saying, because it's making no sense whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:22 AM Rob has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 268 of 314 (420052)
09-06-2007 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Rob
09-06-2007 12:27 AM


Re: metaphysical...
Natural explanations of what jar? What evidence do you have of abiogenesis that can be explaned naturally since before you can explain it, you must show it!
Did you read what I posted? Abiogenesis is a conclusion. We see life. We see a period before that when there is no sign of life.
The conclusion is "Life happened."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:27 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:39 AM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 269 of 314 (420054)
09-06-2007 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by kuresu
09-06-2007 12:26 AM


Re: metaphysical...
Kuresu:
An organism is biotic by definition.
So de novo is the only way to go huh?
Because natural selection would require replication and autonomy.
And if autonomy and replication are not prerequisites for 'organism' then what is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by kuresu, posted 09-06-2007 12:26 AM kuresu has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 270 of 314 (420055)
09-06-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Rob
09-06-2007 12:27 AM


Re: metaphysical...
I can't believe this.
Earth had no life in the past.
Earth has life now.
Therefore, abiogenesis happened.
It doesn't matter if god did it (after all, God used dust, which isn't alive, to make man) or if it happened by natural causes. It doesn't matter if life was seeded my aliens. All abiogenesis means is life from non-life.
Unless you argue that everything is alive, it's hard to see how this isn't a fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:27 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Rob, posted 09-06-2007 12:48 AM kuresu has replied

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