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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Supernatural
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 6 of 107 (41834)
05-31-2003 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
05-30-2003 12:17 AM


buzsaw writes:
quote:
Rather, I choose to use such things as fulfilled prophecy. For example, It has been widely prophesied in the Bible both by OT prophets and NT prophets like Jesus himself and John that Israel would be dispersed worldwide and would return in the latter days to be surrounded by enemy armies and prevail to remain a nation of Israelites at a time when the gospel of Jesus would be preached worldwide until he, Jesus, messiah returns. After 19 centuries this is right on track.
Um, no. The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.
Besides, this was all supposed to happen nearly 2000 years ago. Remember, Jesus directly tells people that they will live to see the end. Mark 14:62, Mark 9:1, etc. My favorite is Luke 9:27:
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Pretty direct.
Are you telling us that there are some 2000-year-old people running around?
If I prophesy that something is goint to happen before the end of the year and it doesn't happen until centuries later, then I did not make an accurate prophecy.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2003 12:17 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by truthlover, posted 05-31-2003 8:41 PM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2003 9:40 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 10 of 107 (42035)
06-04-2003 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
05-31-2003 9:40 PM


buzsaw responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Um, no. The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.
1. They have been on every continent with the exception of possibly Antartica.
That's not dispersal. That's emigration. The two are not the same.
quote:
2. The longer they are out of their homeland and the longer they are dispersed somewhere, the more the miracle,
No, the exact opposite is true. The longer it takes, the less likely that it's a miracle and the more likely it is just natural circumstance.
A random particle moving in a constrained space will eventually cross the same point twice. It isn't a miracle...it's what you expect to have happen.
quote:
as normally they would've lost their national and blood identity via integration into the nations.
But if I deliberately set out to make a prophecy come true, then it isn't a prophecy being fulfilled. It's a personal agenda. If I prophesy that the next word you say will be "flabbergast" and you, knowing this prophesy, decide to make it come true by indeed saying "flabbergast," then it is not a fulfilled prophecy.
It's simply you having a personal agenda.
quote:
3. The British government was engrossed in Biblical prophecy??
Yes. Have you not read the history of the creation of Israel? It was in the making since the beginning of the 20th century. With the collapse of the Ottoman Turks at the end of WWI, Britain got control over the area and set about making a Jewish state.
quote:
And the British government had/has such an interest in preaching Biblical fundamentalistic prophecy so as to work to artificially fulfill it? I don't think so.
And yet, that's precisely what happened. Were the Brits deliberately trying to fulfill prophecy? I doubt it. But where would you expect them to have made the Jewish state? India? Hong Kong? No, of course it's going to be in the Middle East in and around Jerusalem...that's where they've been so excited about for so long.
That isn't fulfillment of prophecy. That's simply doing the most logical thing.
quote:
quote:
Besides, this was all supposed to happen nearly 2000 years ago. Remember, Jesus directly tells people that they will live to see the end. Mark 14:62, Mark 9:1, etc. My favorite is Luke 9:27:
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Most attribute the fulfillment of this to the transfiguring of Christ in the glory of the transiguration when he stood appearing with Moses and Elijah on the mountain.
But that isn't what the Bible says. It is very specific that the end of days was at hand.
Matthew 16:28, 23:36, 24:34, 26:64
Mark 9:1, 13:30, 14:62
Luke 9:27, 21:32
John 21:22
Philippians 4:5
1 Thessalonians 4:17, 5:23
Hebrews 1:2, 10:37
James 5:8
1 Peter 1:20, 4:7
1 John 2:18
1 John 4:3
Revelation 1:1, 1:3, 3:11, 22:7, 22:12, 22:20
I guess I really do need to go through them all. Note that when some context would be appropriate to understand the meaning of the specific verse, I have included it:
Matthew 16:28: Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 23:36: Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
23:37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
23:38: Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
23:39: For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 24:34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36: But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Matthew 26:62: And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
26:63: But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
26:64: Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 9:1: And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Mark 13:30: Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
13:31: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
13:32: But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mark 14:60: And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
14:61: But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
14:62: And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Luke 9:27: But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
Luke 21:31: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
21:32: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
21:33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
John 21:22: Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Philippians 4:5: Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
1 Thessalonians 4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 1:1: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2: Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 10:36: For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
10:37: For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
James 5:7: Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
5:8: Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
1 Peter 1:19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1:20: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Peter 4:7: But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 John 2:17: And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
2:18: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 4:3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Revelation 1:1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
1:2: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
1:3: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 3:1: And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
[...]
3:11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 22:6: And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
22:7: Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
[...]
22:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[...]
22:20: He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
I especially like 1 John 4:3: This means that the Antichrist has been around for about 2000 years. How long will it be before the trap is sprung?
quote:
The apostles James and John witnessed this.
But both James and John say that the end time is at hand.
quote:
As for the reference in Mark 14:62, he may have been referring to the nation in general rather than the specific person to whom he was speaking or he may have been referring to the time of the resurrection of the dead which will happen in the last days of the age. In this reference he did not specify that it would happen before their death.
Incorrect. I have provided the entire context. Jesus was talking directly to the High Priest telling him that he would live to see the second coming:
Mark 14:60: And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
14:61: But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
14:62: And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
There is no doubt about it: According to the Bible, the end of the world was supposed to have hundreds of years ago.
Perhaps that's why so many Christians are so cranky...the world really did end and this is hell.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2003 9:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2003 8:11 PM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 06-16-2003 8:24 PM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2012 8:01 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
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