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Author Topic:   Converting raw energy into biological energy
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 301 of 314 (420552)
09-08-2007 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Rob
09-08-2007 12:27 PM


Re: My summary.
You're making cliams that were never established.

Actually, I'm repeating what I said earlier in this very thread.


I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger
This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Rob, posted 09-08-2007 12:27 PM Rob has not yet responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 302 of 314 (420553)
09-08-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Chiroptera
09-08-2007 11:32 AM


Re: My summary.
Chiroptera:
Even if the thread's attempted point was accurate, that we have absolutely no knowledge of how the natural development of the cell is possible, that still leaves us with no way to conclude the existence of an intelligent designer of any sort. Any hypothesis requires external evidence to support it before it becomes a contender. Without any evidence that such an intelligent designer exists, then it is not an option for serious consideration (at least not beyond an attempt to see if positive evidence can be found).

:laugh:

Thank you for agreeing that the point was established. That was the goal of this thread. It will be the purpose of another thread to establish the evidence that is available for design.

It was never this thread's purpose to do that. And it is not an argument against this threads goal.

One thing at a time Chiroptera... we have established the one... now we can move on to the other.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Chiroptera, posted 09-08-2007 11:32 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Chiroptera, posted 09-08-2007 12:40 PM Rob has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 303 of 314 (420555)
09-08-2007 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Rob
09-08-2007 12:32 PM


Re: My summary.
Even if the thread's attempted point was accurate...that still leaves us with no way to conclude the existence of an intelligent designer of any sort.

Thank you for agreeing that the point was established.

Um, okay. Sure thing.


I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger
This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Rob, posted 09-08-2007 12:32 PM Rob has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12590
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 304 of 314 (420556)
09-08-2007 12:40 PM


Leaving this open a little while longer, but...
...summations are not normally an opportunity for further rebuttal and discussion. Those who have already posted their summations should stop posting.

We're past the 300 message limit (Remember my cautions about chat-style exchanges using up all the message bandwidth? Happened fast, didn't it!), but I'll leave this open another day or so for those who haven't yet posted a summation.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Rob, posted 09-08-2007 1:21 PM Admin has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 305 of 314 (420558)
09-08-2007 12:44 PM


natural methods have been presented
Possible natural methods to produce the steps involved in converting "raw energy into biological energy."

Remaining questions need to be placed in the "Unknown folder".

The case is closed.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 306 of 314 (420562)
09-08-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Admin
09-08-2007 12:40 PM


Re: Leaving this open a little while longer, but...
Sorry Percy... you're right. At the very least, molbiogirl should be allowed to summarize any evidence before the thread is closed. She and I were the primary participants in this debate. I'll hold my tongue after this (restless evil that it is).

Just remember that this debate was about evidence. Any summaries should show either that there is none to date (my view) by critique of the wholly theoretical evidence given by the counter-perspective throughout this thread. Or, they should provide such evidence as has not yet been presented and thoroughly debunked previously.

Summaries about the relevancy of evidence, the lack of evidence, or the evidence of the ID position do not address the issue at all, and only serve to confuse and distort the issue. That is why I felt the need to respond to yours and Chiroptera's summaries. They were irrelevant! This thread is not about the evidence for design. It's about the lack of evidence for the theory of abiogenesis. Though all of us meandered from time to time, I think we did pretty well at governing each other. For example, your temporary shutting of the thread was timely.

I realize that this puts severe limits on the evolutionary view. Such is the demand of emperical evidence. It reduces the possible summary of the counter-perspective to essentially saying that 'we have no emperical evidence to date, but that we are still looking'. That was the entire point of thread and I am very satisfied with the results. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express the problem and ask the questions given to my opponents.

I'll now zip-it!

molbiogirl, you have the floor...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Admin, posted 09-08-2007 12:40 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Admin, posted 09-08-2007 2:24 PM Rob has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12590
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 307 of 314 (420579)
09-08-2007 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Rob
09-08-2007 1:21 PM


Re: Leaving this open a little while longer, but...
Rob,

This is a rhetorical question, more something to ponder than to answer. In response to a request for those who have already posted a summation to stop posting, what would you conclude about someone who has already posted a summation but who posts a response with additional summation anyway?


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Rob, posted 09-08-2007 1:21 PM Rob has not yet responded

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 308 of 314 (420593)
09-08-2007 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Rob
09-07-2007 10:14 AM


Well, I'll be darned.
In researching adenine for this summary, I found a recent paper by my Organic Chemistry professor here at the University of Missouri:

Scientists have been trying to find the origin of Earth's adenine and where else it might exist in the solar system. University of Missouri-Columbia researcher Rainer Glaser may have the answer ... "The idea that certain molecules came from space is not outrageous," said Glaser, professor of chemistry in MU's College of Arts and Science. "You can find large molecules in meteorites, including adenine. We know that adenine can be made elsewhere in the solar system, so why should one consider it impossible to make the building blocks somewhere in interstellar dust?"

Chi said it best:

In fact, the evidence that has been presented in this thread shows quite well that it is entirely possible that the energy conversion processes in the modern cell could have developed naturalistically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Rob, posted 09-07-2007 10:14 AM Rob has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2007 5:30 PM molbiogirl has responded

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 309 of 314 (420609)
09-08-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by molbiogirl
09-08-2007 4:07 PM


Re: Well, I'll be darned.
I've been asked to give a final response on behalf of Rob.

He beleives the evidence is hypothetical and has not been confirmed as of yet. Here is his source link;

http://web.missouri.edu/~glaserr/vitpub/PhysOrg_Adenine.pdf

may apologies to Molbiogirl and admin - I have not read the topic, and am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything said. (This is my first and LAST response on behalf of Rob, as he did say the topic was about to be closed, which is why I have agreed to this.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by molbiogirl, posted 09-08-2007 4:07 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by molbiogirl, posted 09-08-2007 6:08 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 311 by Admin, posted 09-08-2007 9:50 PM mike the wiz has responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 310 of 314 (420618)
09-08-2007 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by mike the wiz
09-08-2007 5:30 PM


Adenine has been found
http://www.astrobio.net/news/article206.html

A nearby resident, Jim Brook, found the first meteorite fragments while driving homewards on the ice of Taku Arm in Tagish Lake. What Brook had uncovered was an extraterrestrial clue from the early solar system, a 4.5-billion-year-old meteorite. To date, 500 more fragments have been found near Tagish Lake and hundreds have been recovered from the site - many still encased in ice.

The delicate charcoal found on Tagish Lake indeed is a rare example of a meteor class called carbonaceous chondrites … an Australian space rock called the Murchison meteorite had captured such excitement and anticipation among meteor experts. That largely charcoal rock held some remarkable clues about how life might have begun, since the biochemistry showed signs of amino acids, the simple building blocks of proteins for cells.

www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2004/pdf/1022.pdf

The exogenous delivery of organic matter by asteroids, comets, and carbonaceous meteorites could have contributed to the early Earth’s prebiotic inventory by seeding the planet with biologically important organic compounds [1]. A wide variety of prebiotic organic compounds have previously been detected in the Murchison CM type carbonaceous chondrite including amino acids, purines and pyrimidines [2]. … Several purines including adenine, guanine, hypoxanthine, and xanthine, as well as the pyrimidine uracil, have previously been detected in water or formic acid extracts of Murchison …

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2007 5:30 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Ken, posted 09-10-2007 8:10 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12590
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 311 of 314 (420648)
09-08-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by mike the wiz
09-08-2007 5:30 PM


Re: Well, I'll be darned.
Hi Mike,

I appreciate that you're just trying to help out a buddy.

Rob,

This is the order of events:

  1. After a second outbreak of numerous chat-style exchanges I closed the thread for a day.

  2. When the thread reopened, since there were only 8 messages left I requested summations.

  3. You and I both posted summations.

  4. You responded to my summation, and a dialog with others began, quickly taking the message count beyond 300.

  5. I said that participants should only be posting summations at this point, not engaging in discussion. I said I would leave the thread open a while for people to post their summations, and that people who had already posted summations should stop posting.

  6. You responded with more rebuttal and another summation.

  7. You were suspended shortly after for misconduct in the POTM thread.

  8. You asked Mike the Wiz to post yet more rebuttal for you, which he did.

For your persistent misconduct in posting extra summations and rebuttals when specifically requested not to, and just for generally doing whatever you damn well please, I'm extending your suspension to a week.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2007 5:30 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by mike the wiz, posted 09-09-2007 11:17 AM Admin has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 312 of 314 (420741)
09-09-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Admin
09-08-2007 9:50 PM


Re: Well, I'll be darned.
Hi Mike,
I appreciate that you're just trying to help out a buddy.

Thanks Percy - you cleverly perceive that that is all it was, as I don't intend to be unfair to anyone, but I have a piggy in the middle dillemma.

I respect your authority as admin, as I know how the admin here are impartial, and put hard work into this site.

I am weak when it comes to doing a good thing, rather than the right thing.:o


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Admin, posted 09-08-2007 9:50 PM Admin has not yet responded

Ken 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 313 of 314 (420912)
09-10-2007 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by molbiogirl
09-08-2007 6:08 PM


Re: Adenine has been found
Alright, this was a great rebuttal (in my own opinion), but Rob requested that I hold my thoughts for now to prevent any incorrect assumptions that I made my post at his request. So, you will all have to sit on the edges of your seats and wait. For now...

Edited by Ken, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by molbiogirl, posted 09-08-2007 6:08 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12590
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 314 of 314 (420923)
09-10-2007 10:34 AM


Closing This Thread
I'm going to close this thread now, but I have one last comment.

Ken, I'm sure you're just trying to help out a friend, but Rob was suspended for a week after posting messages to this thread when requested not to, since the thread was only collecting summations and Rob had already posted his summation. After being suspended for misconduct in another thread, not this one, he asked Mike the Wiz to post an additional message of rebuttal to this thread for him, and for this I extended his suspension from 1 day to 1 week. Now he has asked you to post for him in this thread which is only collecting summations right now, and so now I am extending Rob's suspension from 1 week to 1 month.

Rob, please stop encouraging others to perform misconduct for you while you're suspended. Each time you do so I will extend your suspension by 1 month. If you'd like to encourage others to debate for you by proxy that will be fine (as long as they're not just typing your messages for you, or even worse, that you're just using their account), but if they break the Forum Guidelines while debating for you I will extend your suspension by an additional month for each misconduct.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
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