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Author Topic:   Bible Question: What was the First Sin?
nina70
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 312 (415170)
08-08-2007 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by ICANT
07-27-2007 8:40 PM


Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
Although I`m new here, I couldn't miss the obvious: God made us on his image. That doesn't mean shape of a head or teeth but capability to seek for justice, harmony, and above all to use a free will he gave us. That
free will was also given to Adam and Eve. They use it as they did, and now we are where we are.
Edited by nina70, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ICANT, posted 07-27-2007 8:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Iname, posted 08-08-2007 3:55 PM nina70 has not replied
 Message 244 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-08-2007 5:27 PM nina70 has replied
 Message 245 by ICANT, posted 08-08-2007 5:33 PM nina70 has not replied

Iname
Junior Member (Idle past 3885 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 242 of 312 (415175)
08-08-2007 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by nina70
08-08-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
quote:
That free will was also given to Adam and Eve. They use it as they did, and now we are where we are.
Hello Nina,
I guess it's say to assume you haven't read through many of the threads around here, but that's okay. The idea you've brought up above has been discussed many times across these boards, and in this thread I believe, I'm to pressed for time to check. In fact I predict jar is right this very minute composing a reply that will say the same basic things as I'm about to, with my luck jar will also have posted before I finish.
Anyway the details of the argument change from person to person but the punchline is this. You say that the decision to disobey that A&E made was the first sin. But sinning is an act of volition, so how could A&E's decision have been a sin when they had no understanding that it was wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by nina70, posted 08-08-2007 3:20 PM nina70 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 243 of 312 (415185)
08-08-2007 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Iname
08-08-2007 3:55 PM


Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
Hi Iname,
You say that the decision to disobey that A&E made was the first sin.
Man did not commit the first sin.
But sinning is an act of volition, so how could A&E's decision have been a sin when they had no understanding that it was wrong
Volition is the study of will, choice, and decision.
Volition has nothing to do with understanding what is right or wrong.
Freewill has nothing to do with understanding what is right or wrong.
Sinning, the act of committing a sin (an act that violates a moral rule)
Sinning - Wikipedia
God specificaly in His words nothing left for the man to interpet told the man.
Gene 2:16 (KJV) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The woman did not commit sin when she was begiled by the serpent and ate the fruit.
Man willfuly disobeyed God when he ate the fruit. He made a choice to eat the fruit and die with the woman rather than be left alone with the animals again.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 244 of 312 (415188)
08-08-2007 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by nina70
08-08-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
nina70:
God made us on his image. That doesn't mean shape of a head or teeth but capability to seek for justice, harmony, and above all to use a free will he gave us. That free will was also given to Adam and Eve. They use it as they did, and now we are where we are.
What if I like where I am?
And I do like Adam and Eve. I like their hunger for knowledge. I like their willingness to take risks. I like their initiative. I like people who get naked. Well, usually.
The blame game they went though after their snack isn't their best moment, true. But they were new at this. You can't expect people to be experts in accepting responsibility the first time they are called upon to do it.
And it was a setup. God left two innocents alone in a garden with a talking snake after doing everything he could to call attention to a tree that, if he hadn't metioned anything, they'd have likely passed unnoticed. He did everything but hang a neon sign on that thing saying EAT ME.
God should find their actions easy enough to forgive. I would.
Welcome to EvC.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by nina70, posted 08-08-2007 3:20 PM nina70 has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 245 of 312 (415189)
08-08-2007 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by nina70
08-08-2007 3:20 PM


Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
Welcome to EvC nina,
Although I`m new here, I couldn't miss the obvious: God made us on his image. That doesn't mean shape of a head or teeth but capability to seek for justice, harmony, and above all to use a free will he gave us. That free will was also given to Adam and Eve. They use it as they did, and now we are where we are.
Much has been said in this thread about freewill but in fact it is only used 17 times in the Bible.
16 times concerning freewill offerings.
1 time when Artaxerxes king of Babylon told Ezra that all who in his realm which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
BTW God made us in His image. Body, Mind, and Spirit.
God will allow you to make any choice you desire to make but remember that as with the first man there was consequences for his decision.
There are consequences for the choices you make.
Some choose to not believe in God that is their privilege.
But one day God will exercise his omnipotence and judge man for his choices.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by nina70, posted 08-08-2007 3:20 PM nina70 has not replied

nina70
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 312 (415648)
08-11-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Archer Opteryx
08-08-2007 5:27 PM


Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
God should find their actions easy enough to forgive. I would.
there are some limits in our lives - not all by our own will. Some of them were set by low, by tribes or nature. You have free will to set up a house on volcano but you cant blame anyone if it starts to spit lava and kill everyone in it.
God give us limits, cause we are his creation and he now our capabilities. Disobeying thous limits cose death, illness and etc.
His love is in his son sacrifice who died for our sins.
All he ask from human kind is to obey his rules, and they are simple, simpler then the human low you and me obey every single day in our lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-08-2007 5:27 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 247 of 312 (416592)
08-16-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
08-27-2003 5:56 PM


We have no reason to beleive that Eve lied to the Angel. Taking into consideration that Eve was most likely instructed by Adam about the tree, he may of emphasized to the highest degree that Eve should not eat from it or even touch it!
Although the question seems posed in humor, I figured I might as well throw in my own two cents worth.
In my opinion, the first human sin was committed when Eve began to beleive Satan.

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 248 of 312 (416636)
08-17-2007 3:14 AM


The gardener
Dunno if it`s been suggested, but the first sin in the Bible was when God planted that damned tree. :-p

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Bailey, posted 08-24-2007 3:26 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 249 of 312 (417784)
08-24-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Nighttrain
08-17-2007 3:14 AM


cainabel= a man who kills his brother
Genesis writes:
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
Suppose Adam and Eve’s actions weren’t considered sin because they weren’t capable of distinguishing right from wrong. Suppose their doubt was not sin. If Adam and Eve began the process of the differentiation between good and evil wouldn’t this be the first sin?
Edited by Bailey, : punct.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

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ElOne
Junior Member (Idle past 6043 days)
Posts: 23
Joined: 09-05-2007


Message 250 of 312 (419985)
09-05-2007 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
08-27-2003 5:56 PM


I believe the first sin has to do with why Eve was "cloned" from Adam's rib.

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 Message 12 by Brian, posted 08-27-2003 5:56 PM Brian has not replied

Diios
Junior Member (Idle past 6044 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 09-10-2007


Message 251 of 312 (420889)
09-10-2007 2:09 AM


At the risk of reiterating past sentiments, the 'first sin' as you have opened the topic with, must be narrowed to Human, or general?
Man's - the species, not the gender - first sin was two fold, and clearly stated in the Word;
For Eve, her sin was allowing herself to be deceived. Knowing God's command, not to eat of the fruit, she choose the word of the Serpent over her Creator. (paraphrased, Gensis 3:13)
Adam's sin is somewhat of a touchy topic but, likewise, clearly stated. Genesis 3:17. He choose his wife over God and also defied God by eating of the fruit.
Both committed the exact same 'sin.' Choosing the creation over the Creator; Defying His Command in order that they might benefit themselves.
The 'general' first sin? Pride. Lucifer got the boot for having pride in himself, such that he thought he could ascend higher than God.

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 252 of 312 (420900)
09-10-2007 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Diios
09-10-2007 2:09 AM


Welcome to EvC
Welcome Diios,
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  • This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 253 of 312 (420929)
    09-10-2007 10:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 251 by Diios
    09-10-2007 2:09 AM


    Dilos writes:
    For Eve, her sin was allowing herself to be deceived.
    How can "allowing" oneself to be deceived be a sin?
    If she allowed it, she wasn't deceived - she made a willful choice.
    If she really was deceived, it was no sin.

    “Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
    -------------
    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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    This message is a reply to:
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    Equinox
    Member (Idle past 5142 days)
    Posts: 329
    From: Michigan
    Joined: 08-18-2006


    Message 254 of 312 (420960)
    09-10-2007 12:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 247 by pbee
    08-16-2007 9:08 PM


    when Eve began to beleive Satan.
    Pbee, it’s important to note there that “Satan” isn’t explicitly in the Eden story. He’s never mentioned in all of Genesis. It’s only a later extrapolation that says that the serpent was Satan or was inspired by or possessed of Satan. In Gensis, the serpent is just a serpent. Talking animals are common in “just-so” stories, and also appear elsewhere in the Bible. Let’s not add stuff to the text that isn’t there, as we so often see fundamentalists do.
    Have a fun day-
    Equinox

    This message is a reply to:
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    Diios
    Junior Member (Idle past 6044 days)
    Posts: 3
    Joined: 09-10-2007


    Message 255 of 312 (420970)
    09-10-2007 2:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 252 by AdminPD
    09-10-2007 6:18 AM


    Re: Welcome to EvC
    She was told by the Creator of all - and if not He, then her Husband, who had witnessed some part of creation, first hand (Genesis 2:8,9,19,20) - not to eat of the fruit. She chose to listen to the creation, believing him over the Creator.
    As to the deception, I could go into more depth, but such is not the premise of this debate. The point I am trying to make is thus; Eve knew the truth, knew the decree set forth by God. She lived with it on a daily basis, actively engaging the Creator and living with Him in relationship. She, however, chose a lie as an excuse to eat the fruit. She 'allowed' herself to be deceived when, knowing what the Command was, she convinced herself that the Serpent knew better than God.

    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
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