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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 16 of 307 (421015)
09-10-2007 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
09-10-2007 6:39 PM


Read more carefully Mike
One thing that does bore me is the belief some people seem to have, that if you were a Christian and are now an atheist, then you now have the ultimate truth. Like it's some sort of proof that God doesn't exist. Man, that's so painfully obtuse, it's hard to watch.

That is not what I see anyone saying in any of the posts so far. Could you show that is what they are saying.

I read the posts as responding to the implied pats on the head and the "you don't know what it is like" stuff. Apparently these people do know exactly what it is like.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2007 6:39 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2007 6:56 PM NosyNed has not yet responded
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 307 (421017)
09-10-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
09-10-2007 6:44 PM


Re: Read more carefully Mike
Ned, mikey reads between the lines - some things don't need to be said, they're just plain to see when you have a big steel irrefutable brain of truth.:)

This particular thread has been done a few times. It seems to consist of a group-comfort type scenario, where each comes and tells us what we have heard many times before.

My infinite brilliance can only stand so much repetition of the sickening sight.

Apparently these people do know exactly what it is like.

Well, they know what it's like to believe, then ultimately give up on that belief.

Not that I mind. Their experiences are just as valid as anyone elses. All I am saying is that I don't think it actually proves much. But ofcourse, I have not said that anybody in this thread has said that it proves much.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 09-10-2007 6:44 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 09-10-2007 7:12 PM mike the wiz has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 89 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 307 (421018)
09-10-2007 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
09-10-2007 6:44 PM


Re: Read more carefully Mike
mikey is carrying out some hostility from another thread, and reacting to crash's generally inflammatory (and sometimes arrogant) attitude.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 12254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 19 of 307 (421019)
09-10-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
09-10-2007 6:56 PM


Re: Read more carefully Mike
Peoples beliefs change and/or evolve, and they conclude differing things. I am as strong in my faith as I ever was, although I do not feel a need to prove it to anyone as much as I used to. (Since it cannot be proven anyway! :) )

It is as arrogant for me to say I have the answer as it is for any former believer to say that they have somehow graduated to a new level of awareness. We all are as we are...and it is more important to get along than to attempt to convert each other.

By the way, Mike...we will miss you without your internet. DO Come back when you get re hooked! (Mike the irrefutable loses his internet this coming Friday)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2007 6:56 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2007 7:21 PM Phat has not yet responded
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iano
Member (Idle past 52 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 20 of 307 (421021)
09-10-2007 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
09-10-2007 6:39 PM


Re: Sorry to break up the nods
Nator writes:

While I wasn't encouraged to question faith, really, I was raised a Catholic

mike writes:

What faith? Let's not pretend you had any, so that you can join in the "we've been there done that" T-shirt parade

I think that's a fair call Schraf. Like, talk about an oblique angle of attachment..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2007 6:39 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4656
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 21 of 307 (421022)
09-10-2007 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
09-10-2007 7:12 PM


Re: Read more carefully Mike
Good to hear from you in forums Phat, getting your two cents in. I agree with your post phat. you always offer a pleasant and reasonable/peaceful approach to things. We need more like ya, I'll miss your too, and a lot of guys here.

Meanwhile, the king of sting is about to flex his muscle, and demolish the frog. Stand back, you might here this one down under.

.......it's comin'....it's comin' - oh no! - you don't want none of this frog!

:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 09-10-2007 7:12 PM Phat has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 307 (421025)
09-10-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
09-10-2007 4:24 PM


Re: I know about Faith
what, exactly, caused your change in opinion? if you don't mind me asking?

Honestly? I don't even remember. It certainly wasn't a bolt-out-of-the-blue thing, or some personal tragedy.

It just all stopped working. I realized that when I was talking to God, I was talking to myself. I realized that when I prayed, I was just wishing instead of doing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 09-10-2007 4:24 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1298 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 23 of 307 (421026)
09-10-2007 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-10-2007 5:16 PM


Re: Amen brothers!
I was raised as a fairly conservative Christian, but there was never any real insistence on Biblical literalism. My parents always declined to engage in any sort of debate. I was the one who proposed such non-literal interpretations and acted as the apologist in the family. The rest of my family believe in literalism, but accepted my interpretations so long as I still believed Jesus died for my sins. These are the beliefs I held when I actually joined this site.

I still became an Atheist. My deconversion was caused by the critical thinking skills I picked up on this site and others, and examining the problems of logic in my own reasons for believing. The book Misquoting Jesus helped clear out the last vestiges of faith in anything dependant on the Bible. I basically realized that the only reason I was Christian was because I had been raised that way. I realized that the Bible was so riddles with translation errors, contradiction, and based entirely on the cherry-picking of books to be included in the first place that it was a poor basis for my life. I actually read the Bible with a critical eye, and noticed for the first time all of the horrific violence and disgusting content they gloss over in church, or even (as with the Revelation) try to paint the eternal torment of billions of people as a good thing. And then I realized the only reason I remained a Christian was becasue I wanted God to exist. Since there was no reason other than my desire to actually believe, parsimony dictated that I discard the extraneous entity.

So for me, an environment that was at least tolerant of non-literal interpretations and apologetics made no real difference at all.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-10-2007 5:16 PM jar has not yet responded

Doddy
Member (Idle past 4020 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 24 of 307 (421027)
09-10-2007 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-10-2007 5:16 PM


Re: Amen brothers!
I was also a creationist and hard-core Christian. Although I was never a believer in the Trinity, nor the idea that Jesus was God.

I was brought up in a very exclusive 'the world is not a nice place, so let's get away from it as much as possible' church, but not as extreme as living with no contact with the outside world. Television and, to a lesser extent computers, were frowned upon.

As usual, our church claimed to believe in the Bible literally. Perhaps the most striking feature is that they believed Acts 17:24 is literal, and so we never had church buildings. They also believed Luke 10:1-9 is literal, and so we always had two preachers, each without salary (only money given for petrol for their cars), houses or unneeded possessions. They would stay overnight in the houses of the 'friends' - fellow members of my church.

So anyway, I still go to this church. But for some reason, though I'm not completely sure why, when I was around 14-15 (I'm 19 now), I started questioning what I had been taught. I think that started to coincide with my interest in the brain, and I was very interested in the neurobiology of belief. The most striking feature was that I could not see any room for the soul - everything I thought the soul did, I discovered that the brain controls those. No soul, meant no chance of an afterlife. And no afterlife, for me at least, caused me to doubt God too.

So for me, atheism actually preceded my belief that evolution was true. I never even bothered to think about evolution vs creationism until I realised that the Bible might not be an accurate account of God.

jar writes:

If you had been brought up in a religious environment that encouraged questioning any and all facets of faith, and one where the leaders had not tried to insist that obvious falsehoods like the Flood or Garden of Eden or the Exodus myth or the Tyre prophecy were fact, would it have made a difference?

It's hard to say, but I don't think so. It may have taken longer for me to realise it, but I think if I had still been as interested in neurobiology as I am, I would have eventually discarded religion.

Edited by Doddy, : wrong verse

Edited by Doddy, : also wrong verse - that's what I get for trying to remember the verses


Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 25 of 307 (421028)
09-10-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
09-10-2007 7:12 PM


Re: Read more carefully Mike
Phat writes:

It is as arrogant for me to say I have the answer as it is for any former believer to say that they have somehow graduated to a new level of awareness.

So you don't believe in graduation? You didn't graduate from printing in block letters to writing in cursive? You didn't graduate from pencil to ink?

Who's arrogant? The child who has mastered printing and thinks he has "the answer"? Or the adult who has mastered both printing and cursive and remembers his early steps?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 307 (421029)
09-10-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-10-2007 5:16 PM


Re: Amen brothers!
If you had been brought up in a religious environment that encouraged questioning any and all facets of faith, and one where the leaders had not tried to insist that obvious falsehoods like the Flood or Garden of Eden or the Exodus myth or the Tyre prophecy were fact, would it have made a difference?

I actually had been brought up that way. Neither of my parents were especially religious; going to that church was all something we began to do around the time I was in 9th grade.

So I was never really raised in a fundamentalist household, and I certainly wasn't unaware or unaccustomed to more "fuzzy" religious belief. Fundamentalism was something I came to as a teenager.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-10-2007 5:16 PM jar has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 307 (421030)
09-10-2007 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
09-10-2007 6:39 PM


Re: Sorry to break up the nods
One thing that does bore me is the belief some people seem to have, that if you were a Christian and are now an atheist, then you now have the ultimate truth. Like it's some sort of proof that God doesn't exist. Man, that's so painfully obtuse, it's hard to watch.

Well, your side certainly makes the claim over and over again that Christianity is a further step along the path, and that when us the atheists "mature" a little bit, we'll be religious, too.

I agree it's pretty boring. All I'm trying to tell you people is that it's not a matter of me not being a Christian yet; I've been there already, and I'm past it.

But it's pretty stupid to try to say who's farther or more mature from that. It's ridiculous. Of course, I don't expect Christians to ever stop.

Let's not pretend you had any, so that you can join in the "we've been there done that" T-shirt parade.

We all had it, Mike. We all had faith. But we saw to the bottom of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2007 6:39 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 09-10-2007 8:03 PM crashfrog has responded
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 89 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 28 of 307 (421032)
09-10-2007 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
09-10-2007 7:54 PM


Re: Sorry to break up the nods
I agree it's pretty boring. All I'm trying to tell you people is that it's not a matter of me not being a Christian yet; I've been there already, and I'm past it.

But it's pretty stupid to try to say who's farther or more mature from that. It's ridiculous. Of course, I don't expect Christians to ever stop.

yes, but is merely telling the same story and making the same points, only in reverse, really the answer?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 7:54 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 307 (421051)
09-10-2007 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
09-10-2007 8:03 PM


Re: Sorry to break up the nods
yes, but is merely telling the same story and making the same points, only in reverse, really the answer?

If it shows that Christianity isn't so great that it doesn't have a revolving door out front, then yeah, I think it is.

At any rate, I figured it was better to have one place I could refer people who tell me "oh, Crash, you've just never known how good the nonsense feels!" rather than cluttering up other threads, because it's rarely on topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 09-10-2007 8:03 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

dwise1
Member
Posts: 3408
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 30 of 307 (421055)
09-10-2007 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Chiroptera
09-10-2007 5:24 PM


Re: Amen brothers!
I might also still be going to Church if I were able to find one that welcomes atheists.

Have you tried Unitarian Universalism? Not only do we welcome many different religious views, but many of us are atheists. The website for the Unitarian Universalist Association is at http://www.uua.org/. The UUA was founded in 1961 when the Unitarian church (dating in this country back to around 1770 when Joseph Priestly founded the first two churches here after having to flee religious persecution in England) and the Universalist church (founded in this country around 1800) merged together. We have a long history of having been on the forefront of change and hopefully won't be too liberal for your blood.


This message is a reply to:
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