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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
pbee
Member (Idle past 4191 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 46 of 307 (421082)
09-10-2007 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Chiroptera
09-10-2007 10:58 PM


Re: I know about Faith
I don't think it works that way. From what I can see, God remains in the same place all the time. It is people who are in motion(closing in or away). The scriptures say He wants everyone to stay close to Him, and refers to those falling away as lost sheep.

There are numerous scriptures to support the time and opportunity given to everyone to make up their own minds. The only outstanding aspect of leaving God is for those who turn against God's people.

The scriptures really do give instructions on how to find the right path to God. I believe the formula works. It all comes down to whether or not someone is ready or willing to commit to it. As someone mentioned once, "in this day and age, we have a religion for everyone", whether or not it stand in line with God's word, well that's a whole other story.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Chiroptera, posted 09-10-2007 10:58 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 307 (421083)
09-10-2007 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by pbee
09-10-2007 11:11 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Since the knowledge of God is to attain eternal life, what do atheists offer?

The truth. The same mortal limited life that everyone else gets, only with a little less wasted time and self-deception.

But the way you frame it - as though atheists are just one stall at a bazaar of religions, where people pick and choose at their whim based on what's for sale - really proves my point, doesn't it? Religion is about wishful thinking. The religious mindset is one of "what would I like to be true? What would make me feel the best? That's what I'll believe in."

Atheism offers little solace, little comfort, and certainly little to no hope in "life everlasting". If you're the kind of person for whom wanting those things is a justification for belief in them, then atheism probably has nothing you find attractive.

Me? I'm more interested in what's likely to be true. And it's been my experience that the things people choose to believe because it makes them feel better, because it's something they want to be true, are the things least likely to be true.

Does the phrase "wishful thinking" mean nothing to you?

Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 11:11 PM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 11:58 PM crashfrog has responded
 Message 51 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:14 AM crashfrog has responded
 Message 74 by arachnophilia, posted 09-11-2007 2:11 AM crashfrog has responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4191 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 48 of 307 (421085)
09-10-2007 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
09-10-2007 11:45 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Truth, is an implicative term. Jesus spoke of truth and when He did, he seemed to exemplify that only God knew it. It makes me wonder though, if humans were ever or will ever be in a position to claim to know the truth about life? I remain weary of anyone who, while being bound by the same knowledge and rules as we are, claims to know the truth about anything. Wouldn't this be a case of the blind leading the blind?

How does one contend with the possibility of eternal life in exchange for nothing? It seems like an odd counter offer isn't it?

This is not a criticism of your decision or experiences. I just find that concept of people leaving religions and turning against God and those worshiping Him as a fascinating phenomenon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 11:45 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Taz, posted 09-11-2007 12:10 AM pbee has responded
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 12:16 AM pbee has responded
 Message 82 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 4:36 AM pbee has not yet responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1455 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 49 of 307 (421086)
09-11-2007 12:01 AM


I occasionally see people tell me that I should find jesus and all of that. So, I guess this is the place to say this.

People, I was a christian fundamentalist and creationist. Spent the first 20 years of my life believing in the literal interpretation of the bible... and that's 2/3 of my total lifetime so far. So please don't act like this jesus thing is so wonderful that you need to tell me about because I have never heard of it, because I spent the better part of my life believing in the whole shebang.

What made me change my mind? Unlike crashfrog, I actually remember the instance when it hit me. And yet, it was a pretty damn hard hit. It was the realization that I was a sexist, racist, and bigot, and everytime I talked to god he always answered me by telling me I was right to hate.

Personally, I am very thankful that I was raised in such a dogmatic way. Sometimes you need to see the extreme of something to see how silly it is. Will I ever consider becoming a christian again? Well, let just say that everytime I talk to people like iano, faith, riverrat, nem_jug, mike the wiz, phat, etc I actually see the conversation as a reminder never to fall into the christian trap again. What you people don't realize everytime you try to tell me how loving and caring your god is and how I should worship him and all of that I can't see pass all the prejudice and ignorance that come hand-in-hand with the faith that you speak of.

Is there a hell? I don't know. If there really is a hell, I'd rather stick with my conscience and continue to embrace human freedom and diversity and go to hell than become like you again.

Is there a heaven? I don't know, and you don't know either so don't pretend like you are so high and mighty by bringing the "good news" to me.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by arachnophilia, posted 09-11-2007 2:13 AM Taz has not yet responded
 Message 107 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2007 3:17 PM Taz has responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1455 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 50 of 307 (421088)
09-11-2007 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by pbee
09-10-2007 11:58 PM


Re: I know about Faith
pbee writes:

I just find that concept of people leaving religions and turning against God and those worshiping Him as a fascinating phenomenon.


It's not a fascinating phenomenon at all. It's just part of maturing and realizing that you don't know as much as you thought you did.

I think you've been here long enough to see the creationists who every once in a while would show up and declare they have cosmic wisdom in all fields of science but then upon closer inspections we find that they don't know jack poop about anything they were talking about. Most of these people I have no doubt that they actually believe they know better than the rest of us. But as they mature, some of them will begin to realize that they embarrass themselves everytime they try to speak authoritatively on something. Unfortunately, most of these people will never learn and will continue to live in their delusional state of mind.

Same thing with this whole religion thing. Most religious people would tell you that their religion is the right path toward salvation and the only way to the truth. How do they know this? Well, they were born into a household that dogmatically taught them that. As they grow up and mature, some of them will come to the realization that "hey, I don't know what the truth is..." Unfortunately, most of them will remain convinced that they have the absolute truth until the day they die.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 11:58 PM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:51 AM Taz has responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4191 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 51 of 307 (421089)
09-11-2007 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
09-10-2007 11:45 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Your post grew exponentially since my last reply.

I agree with the fact that religion has really become a pick of the litter type of thing. That is why I personally refer to religions as enterprises. Religions have truly become like a modern business.

However, they are not indicative of God and truth. I think you raised some fine points based on your own experiences and observations. While many religions do sell people on the benefits of becoming part of their doctrines, such things do not stand in harmony with the scriptures.

quote:
Me? I'm more interested in what's likely to be true. And it's been my experience that the things people choose to believe because it makes them feel better, because it's something they want to be true, are the things least likely to be true.
I think the key to success where God and faith are concerned is directly attributed to ones founding reasons for seeking out God to begin with. If it's on a what's in it for me basis, then that person may be doomed for failure to begin with. But I have seen people, start that way and slowly change their attitudes as they moved along. So, who knows!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 11:45 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 12:18 AM pbee has responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 307 (421090)
09-11-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by pbee
09-10-2007 11:58 PM


Re: I know about Faith
I remain weary of anyone who, while being bound by the same knowledge and rules as we are, claims to know the truth about anything. Wouldn't this be a case of the blind leading the blind?

So, until we know everything, we don't know anything?

I don't understand how you could go through life from a position of such paralyzing ignorance.

It seems like an odd counter offer isn't it?

Exchanging truth for lies? I don't find it all that weird.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 11:58 PM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:21 AM crashfrog has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 307 (421091)
09-11-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Jack
09-10-2007 5:48 PM


Re: Ungrounded Convert Disolusionment
MrJack writes:

Born agan christian in my teen years, Atheist by twenty.

Multitudes of professing born again folks either lack inspirational and intelligent mentors within the churches or never get grounded in good inspirational fundamentalist churches and so forth.

Thankfully I was saved/born again in a Biblical prophecy evangelistic meeting where some fulfilled prophecy was substantiated. Biblical prophecy is rarely ever preached in even fundi pulpits (including the one I attend) and that's shameful given about a third of the Biblical is prophecy related in some way and it advocates studying and knowing them. Prophecy is one of the huge evidences which keep me into and substantiate the faith aspects of my Christianity.

That's not all. The Bible says the closer you draw to God the closer he comes to you and reveals himself to you via answered prayers and other miraculous stuff which happens too frequently and is too significant to pass of as coincedence. I absolutely know that God exists and the Bible is credible regardless of the relatively few more problematic aspects some see in it.

I operate somewhat like secularists claim to do. I look at the empirical evidence which becomes the engine which pulls my cars along track for my Christianity train. Without that evidence my cars would go nowhere and like some of you I'd simply hop off and look for a train with some motivation.

I observe individuals, families, cultures, nations and in fact the world and I see those Biblical based ones the more blessed, the more content, generally the more prosperous and the less evil and violent than most others.

I observe my own life and see how the more I hold to the fundamentals of scripture and follow them, the more I'm blessed and when I begin to get careless or stray the more problematic life becomes for me.

I observe the billions of organisms ever so complex with sooo much evidence of design everywhere you look on this one planet with all the distance calculations relative to earth/moon/sun/atmosphere needing to all be precise and I see the rest of the close observable celestial bodies hoplessly void of life and I say, "self, just keep on the straight and narrow and you'll end up just fine to some day enjoy your loving Saviour in his father's house amongst them pearly gates, streets of gold, along that river & tree of life where you eat that heavenly food forever in blissful ecstacy!" :cool:

I've said the above to say I believe had the folks who opted out gotten grounded into the whole Bible, like Jesus's parable of the seeds, they'd have been in good soil and would have gotten established in Biblical truth as I have confident that it is the way of inner joy, peace and eternal life. One does not get established into Christianity just by going to church once a week and listening to sermons. One gets established by doing the homework seriously as a serious runner works out daily. There is that evil one, Satan who deceives. Thus the church may lead you astray unless you're into it yourself studiously. ALL churches have some false stuff in them. Like individuals they're not perfect and always accurate, often being distant from truth. The more you get Biblical, the more you find erroneous in the average pulpit in both evangelical and non-evangelical churches and religious circles. I've attended scores of them, enough to know. There is good and truth in most to a greater or lesser degree just like in the field where there's herbs that heal an herbs that kill. You eat the good and leave the rest.

ABE: I don't mean to minimise the importance of church attendance. It is very important for keeping established in the faith and it is taught in the NT. All I'm saying is that it is just one aspect of being a blessed Biblical NT Christian. Choosing a good one is very important and can be difficult in some areas.

So much for my six bits. Go with God an enjoy. :cool:

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dr Jack, posted 09-10-2007 5:48 PM Dr Jack has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by molbiogirl, posted 09-11-2007 12:28 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 80 by arachnophilia, posted 09-11-2007 3:11 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 307 (421092)
09-11-2007 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by pbee
09-11-2007 12:14 AM


Re: I know about Faith
While many religions do sell people on the benefits of becoming part of their doctrines, such things do not stand in harmony with the scriptures.

But you have to decide to believe the scriptures; otherwise, it's just a book like all the other religions have.

And you decided to believe the scriptures rather than, say, the Koran, because the Bible was more familiar to you - made you feel more comfortable, more like the people around you - and because you like its message. It appeals to you.

That's all it is. People choosing their religious fantasy - or having the choice made for them by those around them, like for children. Choosing it because that's what makes them feel "right."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:14 AM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:24 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4191 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 55 of 307 (421093)
09-11-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
09-11-2007 12:16 AM


Re: I know about Faith
quote:
So, until we know everything, we don't know anything?

I don't understand how you could go through life from a position of such paralyzing ignorance.


Who said anything about everything(laughing).

quote:
Exchanging truth for lies? I don't find it all that weird.
There is no disputing that religions and people lie. But one question remains outstanding, and that is what is truth?

Being born, and raised in a hard core scientifically minded family, I have to question peoples perception of truth. Since both sides(or everyone for that matter) speaking on behalf of life and truth seem to claim they "know something". So I wonder, if exposing lies automatically renders truth about life and God?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 12:16 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 1:34 AM pbee has responded

Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4193 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 56 of 307 (421094)
09-11-2007 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
09-10-2007 3:34 PM


Re: I know about Faith
In another thread, a not-so-evolved white guy pretends like he knows me:

I do know you. Look outside your window.

People - I was a Christian. A fundamentalist, creationist one. Biblical inerrancy. Redeeming power of Jesus. Gave my life to Christ.

All that stuff. I've been there, people. I do know, truly, what you speak of, White Guy. I was all wrapped up in it - which is how I know that it's fake and you're fooling yourself.

You obviously had no experience. Else, you would have remembered and not turned into the atheist you are. You never really believed, you probably never cared. If you had a real experience you wouldn't be where you are now.

Sure, there's joy, too. The joy we make for ourselves. The universe does precious little to make that possible and plenty to make that impossible for some.

This statement tells a profound story. Haven't you always felt this way? Even when you were a christian? Did things really change when you got out of christianity? Besides church attendence?

As atheists, we would desperately love the idea of an inescapable cosmic force that punished the wicked and preserved those we love that we might be with them again.

Make it up. You've made up a reality without a God, for whatever reasons. The only desperate thing you as an atheist are doing is trying to pull as many people into hell with you.

But knowing that justice will eventually prevail is a wonderful thought.

Oh, so you do want it to be true. My point exactly. Sure, maybe it means you have a few cosmic parking tickets to pay, but like most reasonable people, you think accepting the just punishments for your small infractions is worth catching and punishing the guys that rape and murder children, for instance.

What?

We can move mountains, lift cars, walk on water, heal others, levitate, do all of these things.

Are you shitting me? Nobody can levitate on faith, or heal with faith, or excavate with faith. Faith is useless.

That sounds like an assertion of truth. Have you tried any of these? No? I didn't think so. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. How is this useless? How is hoping for something useless? Without hope there is no dreams, without dreams there is no future. You sound like a small child who has had his blanky taken from him.

So don't try to act like I don't know anything about your faith. I believed it long before you did.

I don't have to try. You put yourself out there like a five dollar hooker. My hope is in my eternal salvation the Lord Jesus Christ, my faith is expressed in my witness to yourself and others however poorly it is at times. I'm still new at this.

No matter what anybody says they will never take the experience of God away from me. Which seems to be the prime objective here. Materialistic Humanism is innately devoid of spirituality so how can you, who has no experience, come close to witnessing truth to me?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 3:34 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 1:50 AM Ihategod has responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4191 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 57 of 307 (421095)
09-11-2007 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by crashfrog
09-11-2007 12:18 AM


Re: I know about Faith
quote:
But you have to decide to believe the scriptures; otherwise, it's just a book like all the other religions have.

And you decided to believe the scriptures rather than, say, the Koran, because the Bible was more familiar to you - made you feel more comfortable, more like the people around you - and because you like its message. It appeals to you.


You are way ahead of yourself here. First of all I never said I believed the scriptures. Secondly, you have no idea if the bible was familiar to me or if I liked its message of it is made me comfortable etc etc.

You are wrong on all counts by the way. What drove you to assume these things? Was it something you read? Is it because I said something that contradicted your own feelings?

So obviously I cannot speak for others, but I think I made a point. Not everyone is drawn to God for the same generic reasons.

Edited by pbee, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 12:18 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 805 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 58 of 307 (421096)
09-11-2007 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
09-11-2007 12:17 AM


Atheism and Violence
I observe individuals, families, cultures, nations and in fact the world and I see those Biblical based ones the more blessed, the more content, generally the more prosperous and the less evil and violent than most others.

I am going to ignore the obvious racism and get right to the point.

Sweden is 85% atheist.

Denmark is 80% atheist.

They are two of the LEAST violent countries on this planet.

They are extraordinarily prosperous.

They are two of the happiest countries on the planet (according to recent surveys). In fact, Denmark was found to be #1 in 2006.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2007 12:17 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:35 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded
 Message 61 by kuresu, posted 09-11-2007 12:35 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4078 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 59 of 307 (421097)
09-11-2007 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by pbee
09-10-2007 11:11 PM


Re: I know about Faith
pbee writes:

Since the knowledge of God is to attain eternal life, what do atheists offer?

Why don't you upgrade your eternal life policy with 72 brown-eyed virgins? If you you are going to fool yourself don't go half way.

But you bring up the point the many who seek "knowledge of God" do so from a purely self-centric perspective. I am sure God is impressed.

For those folks who proclaim that they "love the Lord" ask them if they found out that there is really in no eternal paradise awaiting for them would they still "love the Lord"? Probably not which demonstrates what they really love...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 11:11 PM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:40 AM iceage has not yet responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4191 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 60 of 307 (421099)
09-11-2007 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by molbiogirl
09-11-2007 12:28 AM


Re: Atheism and Violence
I don't mean to nit-pick but aren't those statistics a bit skewed?
Last I aw the stats were presented on a minimum /maximum scale, Atheists / Agnostics numbers ranged from 40 and 80%.

I am not knocking your claim, just wanted to clarify whether or not you were aware of this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by molbiogirl, posted 09-11-2007 12:28 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

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