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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 1 of 307 (420988)
09-10-2007 3:34 PM


I know about Faith
For Faith and Belief, I guess, since Short Subjects is closed. Or for nowhere, I don't even know if there's anything here to discuss.
In another thread, a not-so-evolved white guy pretends like he knows me:
quote:
You are the one who lacks the experience. If you knew what I truly spoke of, you wouldn't be arguing against.
Oh how I desperately want God to exist! Is that what you think? Friend I would be glad to believe that life is meaningless and there won't be a judgment again. I thought once, that was freedom and the tools and fools in religion were delusional. Then I had an experience like the deepest love and an ocean of peace wash me of my sins. It was beautiful, and my eyes were opened for the first time. And when I came back down to earth and looked around, it was like Plato's cave. No one will believe me, hell sometimes I don't think anyone can, but it's part of the responsibility to God to witness.
I don't want it to be true anymore than you do, however, it is and it is a tough reality. But knowing that justice will eventually prevail is a wonderful thought. Faith is the most important element of human existence. We can move mountains, lift cars, walk on water, heal others, levitate, do all of these things. Skepticism only begets lack of healthy spirituality and a darkness to the fullness of Him who made us in his image.
People - I was a Christian. A fundamentalist, creationist one. Biblical inerrancy. Redeeming power of Jesus. Gave my life to Christ.
All that stuff. I've been there, people. I do know, truly, what you speak of, White Guy. I was all wrapped up in it - which is how I know that it's fake and you're fooling yourself.
Friend I would be glad to believe that life is meaningless and there won't be a judgment again.
See, that's nonsense. There's no solace in an uncaring universe. In the senseless deaths of the loved and the innocent. This isn't a good time we're having here on Earth, White Guy. Maybe you need to get out more but there's sucky stuff going on. My close friend died in a meaningless war. My wife's grandfather died from the strain of caring for a woman who had forgotten him six hours after the funeral.
Sure, there's joy, too. The joy we make for ourselves. The universe does precious little to make that possible and plenty to make that impossible for some.
As atheists, we would desperately love the idea of an inescapable cosmic force that punished the wicked and preserved those we love that we might be with them again. Jesus, it's not like religion makes all that money by telling people what they don't want to hear. What they don't want to hear is atheism, I know, because as an atheist people are always trying to shut me up.
But knowing that justice will eventually prevail is a wonderful thought.
Oh, so you do want it to be true. My point exactly. Sure, maybe it means you have a few cosmic parking tickets to pay, but like most reasonable people, you think accepting the just punishments for your small infractions is worth catching and punishing the guys that rape and murder children, for instance.
We can move mountains, lift cars, walk on water, heal others, levitate, do all of these things.
Are you shitting me? Nobody can levitate on faith, or heal with faith, or excavate with faith. Faith is useless.
The people that "levitate" are called "pilots", and they fly airplanes, which were invented out of scientific skepticism - the opposite of faith. The people that heal are called "doctors", and they use "medicines", which were invented out of scientific skepticism - the opposite of faith. The people that excavate are diggers, and they dig with machines - machines invented when people got tired of waiting around for God to move the mountains for them.
Faith cannot move anything. Faith cannot do anything. Faith is worse than useless; faith is what convinces people to wait around for others to do it for them.
I know this because I had faith. I was full of it. And it was useless. It was only when I eliminated faith that I began to make anything of myself. They say "God is my co-pilot" but it was only when I took the wheel myself that I ever got anywhere.
So don't try to act like I don't know anything about your faith. I believed it long before you did.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 09-10-2007 4:24 PM crashfrog has replied
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 Message 6 by ringo, posted 09-10-2007 4:58 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 12 by Dr Jack, posted 09-10-2007 5:48 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 31 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 10:09 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 56 by Ihategod, posted 09-11-2007 12:22 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-11-2007 11:53 PM crashfrog has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 307 (421025)
09-10-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
09-10-2007 4:24 PM


Re: I know about Faith
what, exactly, caused your change in opinion? if you don't mind me asking?
Honestly? I don't even remember. It certainly wasn't a bolt-out-of-the-blue thing, or some personal tragedy.
It just all stopped working. I realized that when I was talking to God, I was talking to myself. I realized that when I prayed, I was just wishing instead of doing.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 26 of 307 (421029)
09-10-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-10-2007 5:16 PM


Re: Amen brothers!
If you had been brought up in a religious environment that encouraged questioning any and all facets of faith, and one where the leaders had not tried to insist that obvious falsehoods like the Flood or Garden of Eden or the Exodus myth or the Tyre prophecy were fact, would it have made a difference?
I actually had been brought up that way. Neither of my parents were especially religious; going to that church was all something we began to do around the time I was in 9th grade.
So I was never really raised in a fundamentalist household, and I certainly wasn't unaware or unaccustomed to more "fuzzy" religious belief. Fundamentalism was something I came to as a teenager.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 307 (421030)
09-10-2007 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
09-10-2007 6:39 PM


Re: Sorry to break up the nods
One thing that does bore me is the belief some people seem to have, that if you were a Christian and are now an atheist, then you now have the ultimate truth. Like it's some sort of proof that God doesn't exist. Man, that's so painfully obtuse, it's hard to watch.
Well, your side certainly makes the claim over and over again that Christianity is a further step along the path, and that when us the atheists "mature" a little bit, we'll be religious, too.
I agree it's pretty boring. All I'm trying to tell you people is that it's not a matter of me not being a Christian yet; I've been there already, and I'm past it.
But it's pretty stupid to try to say who's farther or more mature from that. It's ridiculous. Of course, I don't expect Christians to ever stop.
Let's not pretend you had any, so that you can join in the "we've been there done that" T-shirt parade.
We all had it, Mike. We all had faith. But we saw to the bottom of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2007 6:39 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by arachnophilia, posted 09-10-2007 8:03 PM crashfrog has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 29 of 307 (421051)
09-10-2007 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by arachnophilia
09-10-2007 8:03 PM


Re: Sorry to break up the nods
yes, but is merely telling the same story and making the same points, only in reverse, really the answer?
If it shows that Christianity isn't so great that it doesn't have a revolving door out front, then yeah, I think it is.
At any rate, I figured it was better to have one place I could refer people who tell me "oh, Crash, you've just never known how good the nonsense feels!" rather than cluttering up other threads, because it's rarely on topic.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 35 of 307 (421068)
09-10-2007 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by pbee
09-10-2007 10:09 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Is it possible you were barking up the wrong tree?
I went to Catholic school as a kid. I studied CS Lewis and Josh McDowell. I belonged to a fundamentalist church. I've attended moderate Methodist services. Hell, I've banged on drums and hugged trees.
I've barked up enough trees, I think, that I should have hit the right one, if it was out there. And as it turned out, I did eventually hit the right tree - atheism.

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 307 (421071)
09-10-2007 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
09-10-2007 10:33 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Now I'm about to get militant about atheism.
Jesus Christ, hit the deck everybody! He's about to write a book!
...what? Isn't that what Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, and all the rest did to make people think they're "militant?"

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 47 of 307 (421083)
09-10-2007 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by pbee
09-10-2007 11:11 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Since the knowledge of God is to attain eternal life, what do atheists offer?
The truth. The same mortal limited life that everyone else gets, only with a little less wasted time and self-deception.
But the way you frame it - as though atheists are just one stall at a bazaar of religions, where people pick and choose at their whim based on what's for sale - really proves my point, doesn't it? Religion is about wishful thinking. The religious mindset is one of "what would I like to be true? What would make me feel the best? That's what I'll believe in."
Atheism offers little solace, little comfort, and certainly little to no hope in "life everlasting". If you're the kind of person for whom wanting those things is a justification for belief in them, then atheism probably has nothing you find attractive.
Me? I'm more interested in what's likely to be true. And it's been my experience that the things people choose to believe because it makes them feel better, because it's something they want to be true, are the things least likely to be true.
Does the phrase "wishful thinking" mean nothing to you?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 11:58 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 51 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:14 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 74 by arachnophilia, posted 09-11-2007 2:11 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 52 of 307 (421090)
09-11-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by pbee
09-10-2007 11:58 PM


Re: I know about Faith
I remain weary of anyone who, while being bound by the same knowledge and rules as we are, claims to know the truth about anything. Wouldn't this be a case of the blind leading the blind?
So, until we know everything, we don't know anything?
I don't understand how you could go through life from a position of such paralyzing ignorance.
It seems like an odd counter offer isn't it?
Exchanging truth for lies? I don't find it all that weird.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 11:58 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 54 of 307 (421092)
09-11-2007 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by pbee
09-11-2007 12:14 AM


Re: I know about Faith
While many religions do sell people on the benefits of becoming part of their doctrines, such things do not stand in harmony with the scriptures.
But you have to decide to believe the scriptures; otherwise, it's just a book like all the other religions have.
And you decided to believe the scriptures rather than, say, the Koran, because the Bible was more familiar to you - made you feel more comfortable, more like the people around you - and because you like its message. It appeals to you.
That's all it is. People choosing their religious fantasy - or having the choice made for them by those around them, like for children. Choosing it because that's what makes them feel "right."

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 68 of 307 (421111)
09-11-2007 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by pbee
09-11-2007 12:21 AM


Re: I know about Faith
But one question remains outstanding, and that is what is truth?
I don't even claim to know for sure, but this I do know: we're talking about two different paths, here. One path is the path of making conclusions from evidence, without bias or prejudice.
The other path is simply choosing what fantasy you like best. Just making things up with your imagination.
Surely only a great fool would think that the second path is the path that leads to truth?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 2:18 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 71 of 307 (421114)
09-11-2007 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Ihategod
09-11-2007 12:22 AM


Re: I know about Faith
You obviously had no experience. Else, you would have remembered and not turned into the atheist you are.
Wrong again. I did have the experience, and I'm still an atheist now.
Of course, you can't possibly allow yourself to believe that, because you're scared to death of the obvious conclusion - you could be an atheist, someday.
Suggestion? get over your fear of atheism. It's paralyzing you.
This statement tells a profound story. Haven't you always felt this way? Even when you were a christian?
Not at all.
Did things really change when you got out of christianity?
A big change, for the better. I took control of my life instead of "putting God in charge." I began to make something of myself. I began to address my faults and work to change them. When I stopped wasting my time praying for things, and worked to make them happen, they began to happen.
It was a big change, for the better.
Make it up.
Why? Why make it up?
Just because I want it? That's not a very good reason. Why not stick with what is true?
What?
What what? It was a perfectly clear statement in plain English. What didn't you understand?
That sounds like an assertion of truth. Have you tried any of these?
Of course I have. Many others have, too. It's instructive that nobody ever has levitated themselves except by scientific technology.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. How is this useless?
Hoping is always useless compared to doing.
You sound like a small child who has had his blanky taken from him.
You mean, I sound like an adult? Isn't that, indeed, the process of maturity? When we cease to be children with safety blankets?
Why won't you give your blanket up? Because you have the mind and spirit of a child; the needs of a child to be safe and protected from the real world.
Why don't you join us at the adult table, sometime, and leave off your childish fantasies of Santa Claus gods?
No matter what anybody says they will never take the experience of God away from me.
Oh, I don't expect you to be convinced by me. I mean, obviously. That's the first thing religion inculcates in its victims - "don't pay attention to the unbelievers." "What they say may sound wise but it's actually foolishness." Of course you won't be swayed by my words - that's precisely how your religion wants it to be. How could it survive, otherwise?
It's the lack of authentic experience of God in your life that will convince you, eventually; when you get tired of imagining the whole thing. If even Mother Theresa can doubt the existence of God for the last 50 years of her life, I have hope even for you.
Or, you'll die fooling yourself. A tragedy, but one you can bring to an end at any time.
Materialistic Humanism is innately devoid of spirituality so how can you, who has no experience, come close to witnessing truth to me?
Because I've experienced everything you have, and more. I've had every experience you have, and more. And I know the truth of God that you refuse to countenance - it's all a human invention. The need of a childlike mind for a cosmic parent.
Doesn't your religion, after all, call God the "father"? Doesn't it call you all "children of God"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Ihategod, posted 09-11-2007 12:22 AM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 77 of 307 (421121)
09-11-2007 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by arachnophilia
09-11-2007 2:11 AM


Re: I know about Faith
if one truly believes what the bible says, and not just what they wish it said, there's little comfort there, either.
Yeah, but you've described maybe 15% of all Christians with that. For the vast majority of people, it's an exercise in wishful thinking. Grown-up Santa Claus.
Sure, religion can be hard and cruel if you choose to make it that way. Being completely based on lies, you can make your own religion into anything that you care to. Why not just not even bother?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by arachnophilia, posted 09-11-2007 2:11 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by arachnophilia, posted 09-11-2007 3:13 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 79 of 307 (421123)
09-11-2007 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by pbee
09-11-2007 2:18 AM


Re: I know about Faith
For example, though you feel the other path is based on fantasy of ones choosing, what does one make of the evidence provided by the scriptures?
So you didn't have the imagination to make up your own fantasy; you had to cling to someone else's. So what? You still picked and chose. Haven't you ever been to Barnes and Noble? There's a dozen religions with their own books.
There's no "evidence in the scriptures" that supports the existence of any supernatural beings.
I think that the Truth you mention, is not as simple and obvious as we may feel.
By definition, self-deception isn't at all simple or obvious. I mean, that's kind of the point, isn't it? If it was transparent, how could it work?
Why is it that humanity as a whole seems driven to share a common belief?
Common belief? There's more than 30,000 different sects identified in the world, and that's just the estimated number of Christian groups.
You act like you've never been a member of a church. Acrimonious disputes about minor issues of dogma are a universal feature. If it's one thing that typifies the human religious experience, it's discord. Controversy. Even violent struggle.
In an age when religious disputes are sending airplanes careening into New York's greatest skyscrapers, isn't it foolish to suggest that there's any "common belief" among the religions of humanity? They can't even agree on how many gods there are.
To my knowledge the scriptures contain a host of measurable facts and claims.
Sure, and Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is set in a real city, Verona. I know it exists because I've been there. But one true fact doesn't prove a lie. The Bible may very well make mundane true statements; those statements don't establish any particular credibility in regards to supernatural claims.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 118 of 307 (421273)
09-11-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by arachnophilia
09-11-2007 3:13 AM


Re: I know about Faith
i don't think faith is a choice.
It isn't until you make it one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by arachnophilia, posted 09-11-2007 3:13 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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