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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
kuresu
Member (Idle past 746 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 61 of 307 (421100)
09-11-2007 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by molbiogirl
09-11-2007 12:28 AM


Re: Atheism and Violence
Ah, but this is very easy to answer.

All those atheists are unhappy because they don't know God.
The theists are incredibly happy because they know God and God knows them better than any other culture in the world.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by molbiogirl, posted 09-11-2007 12:28 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 4261 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 62 of 307 (421101)
09-11-2007 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by iceage
09-11-2007 12:29 AM


Re: I know about Faith
quote:
or those folks who proclaim that they "love the Lord" ask them if they found out that there is really in no eternal paradise awaiting for them would they still "love the Lord"? Probably not which demonstrates what they really love...

Thats an interesting statement. In the past I recall a group conducting blind tests on that very topic. The results were interesting to say the least. Though many people expressed feelings ranging from loss of hope to complete breakdown, there were a notable number of people who chose to remain faithful to God for the only purpose of doing what was right or pleasing Him.

I think this aspect of faith was best documented in the account of Job though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by iceage, posted 09-11-2007 12:29 AM iceage has not yet responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4261 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 63 of 307 (421104)
09-11-2007 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Taz
09-11-2007 12:10 AM


Re: I know about Faith
quote:
think you've been here long enough to see the creationists who every once in a while would show up and declare they have cosmic wisdom in all fields of science but then upon closer inspections we find that they don't know jack poop about anything they were talking about. Most of these people I have no doubt that they actually believe they know better than the rest of us. But as they mature, some of them will begin to realize that they embarrass themselves everytime they try to speak authoritatively on something. Unfortunately, most of these people will never learn and will continue to live in their delusional state of mind.

Same thing with this whole religion thing. Most religious people would tell you that their religion is the right path toward salvation and the only way to the truth. How do they know this? Well, they were born into a household that dogmatically taught them that. As they grow up and mature, some of them will come to the realization that "hey, I don't know what the truth is..." Unfortunately, most of them will remain convinced that they have the absolute truth until the day they die.


Well this is all true isn't it. But then again, the entire fiasco seems driven by human emotions to begin with. The same emotional outbreaks and claims can be measured in all aspects of life for that matter.

This is more of a human problem than a God and faith problem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Taz, posted 09-11-2007 12:10 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Taz, posted 09-11-2007 1:03 AM pbee has responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 64 of 307 (421107)
09-11-2007 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by pbee
09-11-2007 12:51 AM


Re: I know about Faith
pbee writes:

This is more of a human problem than a God and faith problem.


Well, sure, if there is a god to begin with.

But we know from reality that the existence of god depends solely on people's faith. It's like santa clause. He exists but only in little kids' minds. It doesn't make him any more real in the real world than, say, the pink unicorn.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:51 AM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 1:21 AM Taz has responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4261 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 65 of 307 (421108)
09-11-2007 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Taz
09-11-2007 1:03 AM


Re: I know about Faith
quote:
Well, sure, if there is a god to begin with.

But we know from reality that the existence of god depends solely on people's faith. It's like santa clause. He exists but only in little kids' minds. It doesn't make him any more real in the real world than, say, the pink unicorn.


Well, I don't know about that. We have ancient written records which claim that God made(created all things), now we have the evidence to evaluate and measure. So it would seem as though the existence of God rests on our own capacity to determine whether the claim is true or not. Santa on the other hand, is a child's fairytale. It has been introduced as such and holds no bearing on the origin of life. Though the focus of your statement was placed on the layer of belief. I am not sure we can deny the implications of the beliefs in question to properly evaluate them. It is also notable that a belief in God spans much further than that of Santa. Though God can be many things to many people, the concept in itself seems to precede the limits of our own minds and understanding.

I'm not knocking your take on God and faith, but I think that the consensus that many people throw at the topic is in many cases either convoluted or suffering from improper handling.

I agree with the thought that God can only exist where people choose to believe in Him though.

Edited by pbee, : typo's


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Taz, posted 09-11-2007 1:03 AM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by kuresu, posted 09-11-2007 1:32 AM pbee has responded
 Message 70 by Taz, posted 09-11-2007 1:38 AM pbee has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 307 (421109)
09-11-2007 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by molbiogirl
09-11-2007 12:28 AM


Re: Atheism and Violence
They, like Germany before Hitler are riding the waves of their former Christianity and Biblical priciples ingrained in their culture to the extent that over half are baptized and married in churches.

LOL for the future for athiestic Sweden. Like Christian to athiest Crashfrog, they need to return to the source of the principles that brought blessing to their nation in the first place.

http://www.socialismtoday.org/46/sweden.html

BTW, speaking of racist inuenddos, Perhaps racism is what kept Sweden prosperous, given their rigid stance against imagration, with 90% of the relatively few AfroSwedes there living in poverty.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by molbiogirl, posted 09-11-2007 12:28 AM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 746 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 67 of 307 (421110)
09-11-2007 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by pbee
09-11-2007 1:21 AM


Re: I know about Faith
Santa Claus is real. Well, more real than any so called "god".

Santa Claus is based off of Saint Nicholas of Myra, a real person, as well as being based off of many other cultural traditions.

The myth about Santa Claus living in the north pole with a bunch of little elves and flying reindeer is just that, a myth.

Santa--based on a real person.
God--based on who or what?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 1:21 AM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 307 (421111)
09-11-2007 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by pbee
09-11-2007 12:21 AM


Re: I know about Faith
But one question remains outstanding, and that is what is truth?

I don't even claim to know for sure, but this I do know: we're talking about two different paths, here. One path is the path of making conclusions from evidence, without bias or prejudice.

The other path is simply choosing what fantasy you like best. Just making things up with your imagination.

Surely only a great fool would think that the second path is the path that leads to truth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:21 AM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 2:18 AM crashfrog has responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4261 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 69 of 307 (421112)
09-11-2007 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by kuresu
09-11-2007 1:32 AM


Re: I know about Faith
That's funny.

Truth of it is, because I think your right. Well we could say that God was never labeled as a physical being. Then again, this does not mean He cannot exist. It simply means that both subjects are not of the same form.

I fear we may be deviating off topic here. However, there is always room for a God exists does not exist thread though. If anyone wants to spawn one with a spin, it might end up entertaining who knows.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by kuresu, posted 09-11-2007 1:32 AM kuresu has not yet responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 70 of 307 (421113)
09-11-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by pbee
09-11-2007 1:21 AM


Re: I know about Faith
pbee writes:

Well, I don't know about that. We have ancient written records which claim that God made(created all things), now we have the evidence to evaluate and measure.


Oh, sure, and we also have ancient records of Gaia and Uranus and the titans and the cyclops and the olympians and the trojan war and the achilles' heel...

So it would seem as though the existence of God rests on our own capacity to determine whether the claim is true or not.

Ok. Where and when have we determined the existence of god through analysis of physical evidence?

I'm not knocking your take on God and faith, but I think that the consensus that many people throw at the topic is in many cases either convoluted or suffering from improper handling.

My point exactly. So far, the only accounts we have of god are from the same people that committed genocidal acts in his name. Why on earth would you be taking their accounts seriously when there are literally thousands and thousands of other accounts around the world throughout the ages, especially when not one of them have been confirmed through any kind of tangible evidence?


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 1:21 AM pbee has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 1:58 AM Taz has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 307 (421114)
09-11-2007 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Ihategod
09-11-2007 12:22 AM


Re: I know about Faith
You obviously had no experience. Else, you would have remembered and not turned into the atheist you are.

Wrong again. I did have the experience, and I'm still an atheist now.

Of course, you can't possibly allow yourself to believe that, because you're scared to death of the obvious conclusion - you could be an atheist, someday.

Suggestion? get over your fear of atheism. It's paralyzing you.

This statement tells a profound story. Haven't you always felt this way? Even when you were a christian?

Not at all.

Did things really change when you got out of christianity?

A big change, for the better. I took control of my life instead of "putting God in charge." I began to make something of myself. I began to address my faults and work to change them. When I stopped wasting my time praying for things, and worked to make them happen, they began to happen.

It was a big change, for the better.

Make it up.

Why? Why make it up?

Just because I want it? That's not a very good reason. Why not stick with what is true?

What?

What what? It was a perfectly clear statement in plain English. What didn't you understand?

That sounds like an assertion of truth. Have you tried any of these?

Of course I have. Many others have, too. It's instructive that nobody ever has levitated themselves except by scientific technology.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. How is this useless?

Hoping is always useless compared to doing.

You sound like a small child who has had his blanky taken from him.

You mean, I sound like an adult? Isn't that, indeed, the process of maturity? When we cease to be children with safety blankets?

Why won't you give your blanket up? Because you have the mind and spirit of a child; the needs of a child to be safe and protected from the real world.

Why don't you join us at the adult table, sometime, and leave off your childish fantasies of Santa Claus gods?

No matter what anybody says they will never take the experience of God away from me.

Oh, I don't expect you to be convinced by me. I mean, obviously. That's the first thing religion inculcates in its victims - "don't pay attention to the unbelievers." "What they say may sound wise but it's actually foolishness." Of course you won't be swayed by my words - that's precisely how your religion wants it to be. How could it survive, otherwise?

It's the lack of authentic experience of God in your life that will convince you, eventually; when you get tired of imagining the whole thing. If even Mother Theresa can doubt the existence of God for the last 50 years of her life, I have hope even for you.

Or, you'll die fooling yourself. A tragedy, but one you can bring to an end at any time.

Materialistic Humanism is innately devoid of spirituality so how can you, who has no experience, come close to witnessing truth to me?

Because I've experienced everything you have, and more. I've had every experience you have, and more. And I know the truth of God that you refuse to countenance - it's all a human invention. The need of a childlike mind for a cosmic parent.

Doesn't your religion, after all, call God the "father"? Doesn't it call you all "children of God"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Ihategod, posted 09-11-2007 12:22 AM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Ihategod, posted 09-12-2007 6:07 PM crashfrog has responded

pbee
Member (Idle past 4261 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 72 of 307 (421115)
09-11-2007 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Taz
09-11-2007 1:38 AM


Re: I know about Faith
quote:
Ok. Where and when have we determined the existence of god through analysis of physical evidence?

To my knowledge, it remains to be done.

quote:
My point exactly. So far, the only accounts we have of god are from the same people that committed genocidal acts in his name. Why on earth would you be taking their accounts seriously when there are literally thousands and thousands of other accounts around the world throughout the ages, especially when not one of them have been confirmed through any kind of tangible evidence?
That sounds like a good topic. Not trying to lead you into anything here, but it seems like a good basis for a discussion. If you are up to it. Personally, I think the ancient scriptures have enough weight to call for consideration. While many would scoff at this, for the most part they remain unaware of the information(content) that the scriptures contain. Nevertheless, the entire account is not without controversy, as you mentioned. However, is it really controversial or are we looking at the results of misinterpretation an yet more human derivatives? Is it really as religions put it or is it bigger than that? Is it really intangible or is it measurable?

The questions go on and on. However one thing remains outstanding. The answers will not come about by hand waving alone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Taz, posted 09-11-2007 1:38 AM Taz has not yet responded

kuresu
Member (Idle past 746 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 73 of 307 (421116)
09-11-2007 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Buzsaw
09-11-2007 1:31 AM


Re: Atheism and Violence
Hitler was religious.
German soliders had "Gott min us" on their belt buckles.

And just what is the immigration stance of Sweden?
Some interesting statements:

At first there was some reluctance to accept these foreigners but fairly soon they were generally accepted and even welcomed

Some 30,000 Estonians and 5,000 Latvians remained in Sweden after the war. About 30,000 survivors from Nazi concentration camps were resettled in Sweden between 1945 and 1948

A total of 550,000 Finns migrated to Sweden during this time period.{1950s-60s}

Unlike other Western European countries, Sweden had a policy of permanent immigration that treated these labor migrants as future citizens.

Sweden officially ended labor migration from non-Nordic countries in 1972.

Asylum seekers from developing countries and flows of their family members characterize Sweden's third phase of immigration (1972 to 1989).

In total, Sweden accepted 18,000 Chilean refugees between 1973 and 1989. Approximately 6,000 refugees from Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Brazil, and Peru also came to Sweden

For a good chunk of it's modern (post WWII) history, Sweden has been somewhat lax about letting people in. Not for racist issues though (go further back, to just before WWII you'll see some anti-semitism).

The restrictive immigration policy is actually relatively new.
They are, however, looking into why and how the immigrants have a higher rate of unemployment and dependency of social wealthfare.
They haven't nailed the problem, but they at least want to help these people and have been.

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=406

I can't find any data on your statement about the poverty level of African Swedes.

It's also anecdotal evidence, but no one in my family in Sweden is racist. The people I know do not come off as racist.

by the way, it's atheist, not athiest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2007 1:31 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 211 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 74 of 307 (421117)
09-11-2007 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
09-10-2007 11:45 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Since the knowledge of God is to attain eternal life, what do atheists offer?

The truth.

well, the fundamentalists are trying to sell me that too. only they're willing to pitch in the way and the life as well, for no extra charge (just shipping and handling).

But the way you frame it - as though atheists are just one stall at a bazaar of religions, where people pick and choose at their whim based on what's for sale - really proves my point, doesn't it?

well, no. there are people say atheism is not just another religion, and then still treat it as such. i think its on the shoulders of the atheists to not act like the religious nuts. wouldn't you say?

Atheism offers little solace, little comfort, and certainly little to no hope in "life everlasting".

crash, i tell you in all hopes that you will understand and knowing full well that you probably wont -- religion isn't easy either. fundamentalism tries to make it seem that way, and the fact that it's not, that so much of it fails to make sense, is what tends to drive people away from it.

if one truly believes what the bible says, and not just what they wish it said, there's little comfort there, either. a god who sends his chosen people into exile after exile, just to prove a point. a god who has been known to lie, and destroy all of humanity on a whim. a god who punishes the just and rewards the wicked. that "god loves you" stuff is groovy and all, but some books don't even seem to point to an afterlife at all.

frankly, i feel a lot better knowing exactly how little of it is true. and i'm betting that you do too. fundamentalism simplifies things into black and white. it's what it does. don't mistake that for a second with the full spectrum of religious thought, that it's all happy go-lucky and flowers and shit.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 11:45 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 2:23 AM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 211 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 75 of 307 (421118)
09-11-2007 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Taz
09-11-2007 12:01 AM


What made me change my mind? Unlike crashfrog, I actually remember the instance when it hit me. And yet, it was a pretty damn hard hit. It was the realization that I was a sexist, racist, and bigot, and everytime I talked to god he always answered me by telling me I was right to hate.

sometimes i worry that that god is real, and i delude myself into believing in the compassionate one.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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