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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 91 of 307 (421144)
09-11-2007 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by BobAliceEve
09-11-2007 7:14 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
BobAliceEve:
"The truth as you(I) see it" is not necessairly the Truth; never the less, my God wants me to tell/persue the truth as I see it - even if it takes me into a realm where God is, to all appearances, absent. That, however, is not the same as choosing between God and truth (or choosing between God and Truth) as you might be suggesting.
My God wants me to explore and learn by my experience. The more I do that, the more I choose Him.
Let me make sure I understand this statement.
You are saying that if your pursuit of truth takes you into the realm of atheism--a realm where God is, to all appearances, absent--you would have God's blessing in going there. As an atheist you remain an honest seeker of truth. Being such makes you a 'chooser of God,' whether it seems so or not.
Correct?

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by BobAliceEve, posted 09-11-2007 7:14 AM BobAliceEve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by BobAliceEve, posted 09-12-2007 5:46 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 92 of 307 (421145)
09-11-2007 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by arachnophilia
09-11-2007 2:13 AM


this is precisely where i'm at right now, and precisely why i'm having a spiritual but not religious wedding. i don't want to make a promise to a god i still believe in but am not sure i like all that much.
after 21 years of being a christian, i've been afraid to read the whole bible. and now that i've committed to it, i'm terrified. (btw sorry everyone for skipping out on exodus. maybe we'll get to it next month. i've got comps i'm reading for.)
i had a conversation with my mom about (for want of a better word) zombification in regards to why god commanded the anihilation of whole groups. if someone suffers from a physical plague (she included social, but i refuse to), there are several step of how to deal with it in digression by ability.
1. you cure it. 2. you treat it. 3. you isolate it. 4. you sterilize the people so they can't spread it. 5. you kill them. if a wound rots the arm you must cut it off. but only if you couldn't treat the infection. but there's no evidence of a physical plague and i refuse to accept that it's okay to take the same steps for a social plague.
and of course my officiant was quibbling over god's gender. ridiculous bullshit. people who have issue with gender need to think bigger.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 93 of 307 (421147)
09-11-2007 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by arachnophilia
09-11-2007 3:13 AM


Re: I know about Faith
i don't think faith is a choice. not for me, anyways.
it is compulsion, and my only evidence.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by arachnophilia, posted 09-11-2007 3:13 AM arachnophilia has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 94 of 307 (421148)
09-11-2007 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2007 4:36 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
If you had to choose between God or truth, which would you choose?
neither. i have always tried to choose right. this seems to be supported by neither right now. neither god nor science can tell me how to treat people and how to treat their ills. i understand this is not the realm of science. but for me, that is my need, these are my questions. science has no answers for me anymore because i'm not asking those questions. i grew up. where we came from doesn't matter. it's where we're sending ourselves.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 4:36 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 10:09 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 95 of 307 (421150)
09-11-2007 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by macaroniandcheese
09-11-2007 9:40 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
I asked how things would fall out if you had to choose between God and truth.
brennakimi: neither. i have always tried to choose right. this seems to be supported by neither right now. neither god nor science can tell me how to treat people and how to treat their ills.
Why did you automatically use 'science' as a synonym for truth?
Isn't it fair to say you see truth of some sort in 'right'? A truth you believe science and religion miss?
____

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-11-2007 9:40 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-11-2007 10:18 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 96 of 307 (421152)
09-11-2007 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2007 10:09 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
Why did you automatically use 'science' as a synonym for truth?
i didn't. god and science are the assumed odds here. or rather god and not god. but not god depends on science, so there you go.
Isn't it fair to say you see truth of some sort in 'right'? A truth you believe science and religion miss?
yes. i suppose. but right doesn't depend on the origins of the universe or the presence or absence of the divine, so it's really not part of this discussion.
and i wasn't discussing religion. religion is crap. we have texts and we potentially have entity(ies). the way other people respond to it can help me understand how i respond to it, but it does not determine my relationship to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 10:09 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 97 of 307 (421153)
09-11-2007 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2007 4:36 AM


Atheism or Truth
Let's ask the corresponding question of our atheists, too. Just to be fair.
If you ever had to choose between atheism or truth, which would you choose?
Easy - Truth
Even if that truth was god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 4:36 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 307 (421154)
09-11-2007 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2007 4:36 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
I'll take Truth for $50.00 Alex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 4:36 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Asgara, posted 09-11-2007 10:32 AM Phat has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 99 of 307 (421156)
09-11-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-11-2007 10:28 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
So, you'd be fine finding out that god wasn't real?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-11-2007 10:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 307 (421157)
09-11-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Asgara
09-11-2007 10:32 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
Asgara writes:
So, you'd be fine finding out that god wasn't real?
Depends how I found out. I am skeptical of any human wisdom on the issue. It would have to be an inner unction...an epiphany arising within me.
It took me quite awhile to come to the realization that God cannot be "proven" to others...but now I am OK with that.
The idea that God "does not exist" is akin to informing me that my Mother no longer exists. It would be like a death in the family.
Ideas are hard to kill, however. I expect God and Truth to be synonymous for many years tocome.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 101 of 307 (421166)
09-11-2007 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
09-11-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
Phat writes:
I am skeptical of any human wisdom on the issue. It would have to be an inner unction...an epiphany arising within me.
That seems backwards to me. Isn't it supremely arrogant to trust yourself instead of comparing your "unction" with that of other humans?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-11-2007 12:30 PM ringo has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6027 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 102 of 307 (421181)
09-11-2007 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by iceage
09-11-2007 2:38 AM


Re: I know about Faith
Hi thanks for this. I have often contemplated making such a list myself. Your's looks nicely composed. We could add a few more if we delved into the prophesied aspect of things also. However, it seemed very impressive(as you state) just as it is.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 103 of 307 (421182)
09-11-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
09-11-2007 11:18 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
not really. everyone's knowledge is equally biased by their language, perception, and experience. there's really no reason to trust anyone else on something without solid, clear evidence more than you trust yourself.
of course, one would assume that this particular question would involve such evidence, but i don't count on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-11-2007 11:18 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 09-11-2007 1:19 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 307 (421183)
09-11-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2007 4:36 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
If you ever had to choose between atheism or truth, which would you choose?
First, I doubt that it's a matter of choice. People believe what they believe. They can acknowledge what they really believe, or they can go into some sort of self-denial. People can have some influence over their beliefs by avoiding studying a subject in depth or by refusing to think very deeply about the implications of what they know, but in the end people will believe what they believe without much conscious choice.
But, to avoid charges of dodging the question, let me answer that I don't know if I'd really need to make such a choice. Simply acknowledging the existence of a god is not itself a religion, otherwise acknowledge the non-existence of a god (atheism) would be as much a religion. Relgion is more than just belief that there is a god; it is an entire mental construction that gives one a sense of place in the universe and in society. As such, it involves and produces myths (not necessarily untrue stories), morality, and rituals.
Even if one defines religion (assuming a deity exists) as the proper worship that keeps that deity happy, it involves things like faith in, respect for, and love of that deity. These are not easy things to come by -- just like beliefs, people are not entirely in control of who they trust or love. These things pretty much just happen.
Even if it could be demonstrated so that I have no doubt that a god exists, I don't see it changing the way I view the world in any significant way, nor the way I live my life. Why would it?
Even if it could be demonstrated that the Evangelical Protestant god of hellfire and damnations exists, I don't see how it would make me any more likely to love or have faith in that deity. These things are not in my control. That's not to say I wouldn't go throught the motions of worship if I felt it would keep the big guy happy (or not if it wouldn't do any good), but my inner feelings wouldn't change too much.
So, even it could be shown to me without a doubt that a god exists, I suspect that I would remain an atheist in all essential respects, except for what I feel to be the trivial acknowledgement that a god exists.

I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 4:36 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 105 of 307 (421192)
09-11-2007 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by macaroniandcheese
09-11-2007 12:30 PM


Re: Which is supreme?
brennakimi writes:
there's really no reason to trust anyone else on something without solid, clear evidence more than you trust yourself.
There's the possibility of delusion.
Mass delusions are possible too, but if you expose yourself to a wide range of outside opinions, you're less likely to succumb.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-11-2007 12:30 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-11-2007 1:29 PM ringo has not replied

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