Proof for God's Non-existance?

Okay, so, in keeping with the topic of this thread, your 'positive-evidence for no-God' is that God is a "fictional character"? Where fictional can be defined as:

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Dictionary.com
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5. an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.
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Okay, that's fine, but my question to you now is this: when referencing works of literature, what are your criteria for determining whether a character is fictional, historical, a combination, or whatever matter of 'real' you may determine it to be?Thankyou,
JonEdited by Admin, : Fix subtitle.

And indeed they do. The difference might be subtle to some. However, there exists a difference. The theist hears an extraordinary worldview and says 'OK, that's the way the world is, I have faith that is so', or they say 'Show me that what you say is true, otherwise I have no reason to believe you'.Atheists generally take certain things on faith - such as 'the world exists', but only as a necessity (how else could we function?). They don't generally demand that others prove their propositions absolutely either. Normally they simply ask for the evidence that supports a position, if the evidence is lacking they tentatively reject the hypothesis.In the case of God, evidence is very much lacking. So if any God exists, it doesn't seem to have much of an impact in the world - or any impact it does have is cryptic and indiscernible from nature. There seems no reason to assume that God exists, so the default stance is to not believe unless evidence arises.Why is that the default stance, you might ask? Well, you should ask yourself that very thing - since you do it all the time. Theists do it, atheists do it. The biggest difference is the consistency with which it is done.In a world of mental illusions, psychological tricks, pitfalls and the people who exploit them, it is prudent to be skeptical. The most convincing hallucinations are not the visual ones, but the psychological ones are the ones where you believe certain insane things are happening (like in some dreams where contradictory or surreal things make sense and are true) - an atheist defends themselves against such things as best as they can by trying to remain skeptical. Of course, this stance cannot withstand the force of powerful hallucinogens, but it does do well against powerful oratory, spooky feelings, and the feeling of divine contact or beauty or awe or call it what you will that we all feel sometimes.

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Okay, so, in keeping with the topic of this thread, your 'positive-evidence for no-God' is that God is a "fictional character"?

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You'll have to explain in plain terms what a no-god is before I can actually answer that question. No analogies please.
Like I said, I'm not much on logic babble.

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Okay, that's fine, but my question to you now is this: when referencing works of literature, what are your criteria for determining whether a character is fictional, historical, a combination, or whatever matter of 'real' you may determine it to be?

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Message 105Message 110 ... Without specific parameters we really can't discuss whether gods can be found in the spatio-temporal world.The one with the specifics has to provide the information for those doing the looking.Where do we find these specifics? In literature and stories. God's attributes are dependent on people. ...Please read all of Message 110 so I don't have to repeat those points.

You have to be more specific than "the ancient scriptures". If you mean "the Bible", say so. Of course not. Robinson Crusoe purports to have been written by Robinson Crusoe. Fiction written by a fictional character is still fiction.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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You have to be more specific than "the ancient scriptures". If you mean "the Bible", say so.

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What are you rambling about. I meant the ancient scriptures just as I wrote.

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Of course not. Robinson Crusoe purports to have been written by Robinson Crusoe. Fiction written by a fictional character is still fiction.

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Sure, so was Robinson Crusoe ever slated to be real? Did the story make claims to reality or was it classified as such(fiction)? If the answer is yes, then we have to discount the reality behind Robinson Crusoe in order to classify it as fiction. Otherwise we are making blind assumptions.

God wrote this forum post.This forum post is inerrant.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

I imagine that by "Ancient Scriptures" he is referring to some of the older theological texts, perhaps the Book of the Dead that was written at least several hundred years before the earliest books of the Torah were allegedly dictated, or the Vedas which were also written (at least the earliest Vedas) hundreds of years before the Torah books were supposedly dictated or maybe the even older Epic of Gilgamesh.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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God wrote this forum post.

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This forum post is inerrant.

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Now my first intent seeing this is to evaluate the claim in order to categorize it. Though, I do see your point, I would say, the implication lacks in body and context.For example, where does fictional writing tie in with reality? The onset that the scriptures contain claims for a host of measurable aspects of life and matter places it in a category outside fiction.I think there is a distinguishable divide were we can apply personal considerations on our own views of scriptural data. However, this does not perpetuate the qualifying characteristics of God into a fictional group as a whole. In other words, one can claim he or she doesn't believe in God moresoe than Santa, and even provide reasoning to support his or her position. However this has no effect on the general status or position of God relative to fiction as a whole.It is possible however, to discredit the validity of God's existence based on scriptural content. I find it odd that people avoid this aspect of validation altogether. In a previous post, someone mentioned that Robinson Crusoe was a fictional character who wrote a fictional book. And to this, we would respond by validating the accuracy and tangibility of the book in order to classify *it as fiction.This brings us down to reality. The reality that God and the scriptures can be verified in order to classify it accordingly. Anything else(in my opinion) stands as nothing more than hand waving. So who here is prepared to truly scrutinize the validity of God and His writing? Because as it stands, we are looking at nothing more than convoluted(or backward) attempts to categorize God's existence based on residual data relative to the ancient scriptures or accounts.The only way to properly treat the evidence and validity of God's existence is to gather the evidence and evaluate the results against our own knowledge and data to measure the results. Otherwise we remain limited to personal opinions. Which do not stand for much in light of effective categorization.

In that case, there are a vast number of mutually exclusive god-characters in the "ancient scriptures". It would be impossible to choose one as authentic. I have a biography of James Bond that claims to be real. It contains interviews with the "real James Bond". Does that mean James Bond is real?

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

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For example; if the scriptures are positioned at the root origin of fairytales then it is redundant to apply fairytale measures to scrutinize the scriptures.

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As I said before, the Christian Bible is composed of many styles of writings. Fairy tale is a style of writing and not the only type of work to contain fictional characters. So please be specific in what you are talking about and not lump all scripture together or all fictional characters into fairy tales. If you have better criteria for fictional characters, please present it.

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As for God(the author) the scriptures state that it was God Himself who told Moses to write down what He was about to tell him. Now I might be wrong in this, but doesn't this qualify God as the Author of that document?

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The authors of the Moses stories are the authors.The Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 are considered part of a priestly writing written after 722 BCE. (Documentary Hypothesis)The part about the second tablets in Exodus 34 were supposedly written by the J writer while the kingdoms were divided. After 922 BCE.If you want to discuss the Documentary Hypothesis itself, there may still be a thread open or you can start one, but don't continue it here unless you can tie it in with the topic.

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Do we have any fairytales which predate the ancient scriptures?

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I believe the earliest writing of the Epic of Gilgamesh is considered to have been written about 2150 BCE-2000 BCE.The main issue concerning this topic is that fictional characters are dependent. Message 110.Does any god function independent of literature, stories, or people?

People don't avoid it. Atheists and other non-Christians use it all the time when they say that a book cannot be evidence of its own validity.Even a book containing some facts cannot be considered inerrant without outside corroboration of each individual claim being made.For instance, the movie Independence Day featured several real-world major cities. The existence of the cities in real life has no bearing on the validity of the remainder of the movie's content. Likewise, "ancient scriptures," to use your generic term, typically contain at least some real-world locations, and can even contain real historical fact right alongside pure nonsense.Example:

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God appeared to me in a vision, and told me to write this forum post. He said this post is inerrant, and was written in Sacramento, CA. He also said to mention that the US is currently engaged in a war in Iraq, and that World War II happened back in the 30s and 40s. The sky is blue. Also, yea verily, there is a monster living under your bed. You cant find him because he's intangible and invisible, but he's there. God said so. Verily.

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The presence of several actual facts does not mean the rest of the statement is anything more than fiction, regardless of the claims made. The unfalsifiable claims of the "ancient scriptures" (the existence of deities of any sort, for instance) are in no way corroborated by any facts that may have snuck their way through the nonsense.When you say we must take into account the "evidence presented in the ancient scriptures," you may as well say we should take into account the evidence presented in the latest Tom Clancey novel. Somehow, you think your statement holds more validity, perhaps becasue a lot of people believe in the same nonsense, or perhaps because your book is "really really old." You are mistaken, in any case. Books cannot prove their own content. To say as much is circular reasoning.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

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The authors of the Moses stories are the authors.

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The Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 are considered part of a priestly writing written after 722 BCE. (Documentary Hypothesis)

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The part about the second tablets in Exodus 34 were supposedly written by the J writer while the kingdoms were divided. After 922 BCE.

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Thats interesting, because the scriptures which predate your claims state that the ten commandments were penned by Moses and dictated by God. Now I don't want to seem rude, but in a case such as this, wouldn't the older claim take precedence over the younger one? especially if the material is archived?

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If you want to discuss the Documentary Hypothesis itself, there may still be a thread open or you can start one, but don't continue it here unless you can tie it in with the topic.

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It is tempting but time constraints and work projects are against me. However, since you seem inclined to present your own views on matters, perhaps you could take the initiative. In turn, I would gladly share my own research data. Whatever the case, those claims(you posted) are inadmissible since they are much younger than the archaeological evidence archived for study.

Which is presumably why you are a Muslim. After all, the scriptures, which predate any contradictory claims state that the entirety of the Koran was penned by Mohammed dictated by God via the angel Gabriel. And we definitely know Mohammed existed - there exists a fair amount of documentation to confirm this.Salaam,

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No - I don't believe a cosmic Jewish zombie can make me live forever if I eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that I accept him as my master, so he can then remove an evil force from my soul that is present in all of humanity because a dirt/rib woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree about 6,000 years ago just after the universe was created. Why should I?

I really find it odd (and interesting) that you find it odd.Scriptural content and its validity/invalidity are discussed here all the time and elsewhere. I have found the claim that the biblical scriptures are anything other than the result of the human mind and culture is wanting. But maybe you have some convincing evidence otherwise. Please share it with us. I do not like your second sentence as it equates the reality of God with scriptures. The reality of God can exist with or without the validity of the scriptures. Well that is the purpose of this forum. I know a number of the participants here are prepared and have spent significant energy and time researching just this issue, much greater and deeper than I ever have. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

Whether or not God is fictional, the kind of writing you refer to does have a specific name: mythology.I'm sure the atheists here will happily say that mythology is an old genre of fiction. You believe that some mythology is true or correct. I am using mythology to mean "A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or forces or creatures , which embodies and provides an explanation, aetiology, or justification for something such as the early history of a society, a religious belief or ritual, or a natural phenomenon"