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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 307 (421013)
09-10-2007 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-10-2007 5:16 PM


Re: Amen brothers!
quote:
If you had been brought up in a religious environment that encouraged questioning any and all facets of faith, and one where the leaders had not tried to insist that obvious falsehoods like the Flood or Garden of Eden or the Exodus myth or the Tyre prophecy were fact, would it have made a difference?
While I wasn't encouraged to question faith, really, I was raised a Catholic, so was not taught that any of that stuff was literally true, but were mythical stories and/or metaphor.
It didn't make a difference that the Catholic church had no problem with science. There were plenty enough strange, irrational, and damaging ideas to reject even without the literalism.
I think the only church I might have continued to attend if I had been raised in it would have been Unitarian Universalist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-10-2007 5:16 PM jar has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 307 (421132)
09-11-2007 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
09-10-2007 6:39 PM


Re: Sorry to break up the nods
quote:
What faith? Let's not pretend you had any, so that you can join in the "we've been there done that" T-shirt parade.
Sure I did.
I grew out of it, just like you grew out of having faith in Father Christmas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2007 6:39 PM mike the wiz has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 85 of 307 (421133)
09-11-2007 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by iano
09-10-2007 7:19 PM


Re: Sorry to break up the nods
I think it is so funny how the only people who try to tell me what I know, think, feel, or believe, now or in the past, or even will or will not in the future, are believers.
I guess people like you and mike just get used to thinking you know things when they are merely made up or imagined.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by iano, posted 09-10-2007 7:19 PM iano has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 86 of 307 (421134)
09-11-2007 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by molbiogirl
09-11-2007 12:28 AM


Re: Atheism and Violence
Don't bother giving buzsaw the facts about the standard of living of Christian vs. Atheist countries, and how the Atheist (and liberal) places are much nicer places to live.
He's been shown he is very wrong on this point many times before, yet he repeats the same wrong statements over and over agiain.
But that's what Buzsaw does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by molbiogirl, posted 09-11-2007 12:28 AM molbiogirl has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 88 of 307 (421136)
09-11-2007 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2007 4:36 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
quote:
If you ever had to choose between atheism or truth, which would you choose?
Truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 4:36 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 89 of 307 (421137)
09-11-2007 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Buzsaw
09-11-2007 12:17 AM


Re: Ungrounded Convert Disolusionment
quote:
I observe individuals, families, cultures, nations and in fact the world and I see those Biblical based ones the more blessed, the more content, generally the more prosperous and the less evil and violent than most others.
Yeah, and you also base your opinion on the state of the entire world's climate by looking at how things are growing on your own property.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Buzsaw, posted 09-11-2007 12:17 AM Buzsaw has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 117 of 307 (421272)
09-11-2007 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by mike the wiz
09-11-2007 5:57 PM


quote:
Therefore there should be many examples of this. Can you show me some, because that's the first time anyone has called me "obtuse" in my life.
Well, you did think that God was wanting you to read a certain part of your bible, when all that was really happening was that the binding of the book was creased at that place.
Maybe "obtuse" isn't the right word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2007 5:57 PM mike the wiz has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 119 of 307 (421274)
09-11-2007 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by pbee
09-11-2007 8:06 PM


quote:
There are people who live life and truly enjoy thanking God for it. Just as you convoluted being kind to others and dismissing the source of it all, some people truly feel that kindness should be extended to God as well.
Yeah, but...
So?
It doesn't make it any less irrational.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 8:06 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 8:44 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 121 of 307 (421289)
09-11-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by pbee
09-11-2007 8:44 PM


quote:
Well perhaps you should define rational?
Does it make sense to claim kindness to others and neglect the one who made it all happen?
Non Sequitor.
quote:
I don't know about you but this does not sound like a balanced position on things. If anything, it doesn't seem sound.
ex: I will love my neighbour by being kind and generous to him but as for my parents, I will not extend them any such courtesy. Does this sounds sensible?
I really have no idea what this has to do with anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 8:44 PM pbee has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 307 (421435)
09-12-2007 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Hyroglyphx
09-12-2007 5:08 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Well, this is what I notice about posters here at EvC.
There are people who seem to, as a group, nearly always have their facts straight about science, history, and just about any other subject they choose to inform themselves about. They tend to be nimble thinkers and articulate writers, able to see many nuances and able to tolerate ambiguity and uncertainty. They nearly always seem to be on the side of human rights, freedom, and fairness for everyone, and who seem happier, less judgemental, more forgiving and accepting and more generous towards their fellow human beings.
There is another group which I notice seems to be wrong over and over again when it comes to science, history, and many other subjects, and rarely do they appear to be terribly concerned with their lack of accurate information. These people tend to debate issues poorly and illogically, leaving gaping holes in their arguments which are easily ripped apart. They seem to be a strange combination of ignorance and arrogance; both fearful and overconfident. They tend to see the world in black and white, good and evil. They tend to have a strong need for some kind of authority figure to tell them how to live and what to think. They tend to be less tolerant and more small-minded; less generous, less apt to want others to have freedom and more apt to embrace authoritarianism. They tend to be more sexist and racist and in general, be more bigoted.
Guess which group is more attractive to me?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-12-2007 5:08 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-12-2007 10:36 PM nator has not replied
 Message 182 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2007 7:10 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 149 of 307 (421436)
09-12-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Ihategod
09-12-2007 6:11 PM


Re: Which is supreme?
quote:
Yeah, but God is truth, so to seperate God from truth is a thing not possible.
Is it possible that you are wrong about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Ihategod, posted 09-12-2007 6:11 PM Ihategod has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 186 of 307 (421588)
09-13-2007 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Hyroglyphx
09-13-2007 7:29 AM


Re: I know about Faith
quote:
I think some skepticism is an important aspect of faith. I would say that all good Christians should grapple with God. But whenever something trips me up and I can't currently wrap my mind around the concept, at some point I always find the answer eventually. Usually when that happens, its indicative of a lack of understanding on my part.
The thing that most believers are not aware of, though, is the very strong human ability to deceive ourselves through various sorts of bias and selective thinking.
We like to protect our cherished beliefs in order to avoid psychic pain, and many people will go to great mental lengths to do so, even when they must deny reality to do so.
It is like the mother who, in retrospect, realizes how obvious the signs were that her new boyfriend was molesting her daughter. At the time it was happening, however, she would have denied the very possibility as absurd, even though the evidence was right there in front of her all the time. She simply chose to ignore the obvious, since it would have been too painful to accept the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2007 7:29 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2007 7:34 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 187 of 307 (421589)
09-13-2007 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Hyroglyphx
09-13-2007 8:08 AM


Re: Biblical Fundamentalist
quote:
What people love to do is point out how some avowed Christian says or does something counter to their own ascribed theology, only to bring the whole of Christendom in to ill-repute. That kind of reasoning is flawed, as it only serves to confirm that the people espousing it are wrong, not the doctrine itself.
So when Buz condemns all Muslims for the behavior of a minority, you should be right there, correcting him and telling him that he's wrong, every time.
Right?
Funny that I don't remember you doing that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2007 8:08 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-14-2007 1:47 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 209 of 307 (421711)
09-13-2007 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Hyroglyphx
09-13-2007 7:34 PM


Re: I know about Faith
The thing that most believers are not aware of, though, is the very strong human ability to deceive ourselves through various sorts of bias and selective thinking.
quote:
Yes, to a large extent I think that afflicts the lot of us, theistic and atheistic alike.
There is reason to think that it tends to affect religious people more than it does the non-religious. People who have come to Atheism through rational, logical, deliberate examination of the evidence tend to use that sort of thought processes in most aspects of their lives.
IOW, religious people who reject science and scientific thinking (like most of the fundies here) are not at all likely to even be aware of such biases in the first place, let alone take measures to combat them in themselves.
quote:
But that doesn't mean that everyone lives in a constant state of delusion either.
Most people definitely do, though.
Certainly, the millions of people who believe in Astrology, or dowsing, or that Saddam Hussein was involved in the WTC attacks, or that Aliens abduct people are deluded.
Everyone has false memories of things that never happened, or have no memory of things that did, because our brains make mistakes.
quote:
We're all subject to personal biases whether we like it or not.
Absolutely, and I strongly suspect that those who embrace magical thinking are far less likely to be aware of such bias, let alone be able to counterract it in themselves.
It really does take a lot of education in logic and even more dicipline to not come to sloppy, biased conclusions about almost anything.
quote:
The objective, I suppose, is objectivity itself.
Well, the objective is to always maintain doubt, do not allow yourself to believe without evidence.
To quote Feynman:
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2007 7:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 237 of 307 (421879)
09-14-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Hyroglyphx
09-14-2007 1:47 PM


Re: Biblical Fundamentalist
quote:
Probably because I've never seen Buz condemn all Muslims. I've seen him criticize those who are hypocritical and I've seen him speak out against Islam over its religious veracity-- all of which I do too.
When he characterizes Islam as a violent religion because of the violent behavior of a few of Islam's followers, he most certainly is condemning all Muslims.
He is doing exactly what you called "flawed reasoning" and "wrong".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-14-2007 1:47 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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