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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 121 of 307 (421289)
09-11-2007 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by pbee
09-11-2007 8:44 PM


quote:
Well perhaps you should define rational?
Does it make sense to claim kindness to others and neglect the one who made it all happen?
Non Sequitor.
quote:
I don't know about you but this does not sound like a balanced position on things. If anything, it doesn't seem sound.
ex: I will love my neighbour by being kind and generous to him but as for my parents, I will not extend them any such courtesy. Does this sounds sensible?
I really have no idea what this has to do with anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 8:44 PM pbee has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 122 of 307 (421310)
09-11-2007 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
09-10-2007 3:34 PM


Re: I know about Faith
People - I was a Christian. A fundamentalist, creationist one. Biblical inerrancy. Redeeming power of Jesus. Gave my life to Christ.
All that stuff. I've been there, people. I do know, truly, what you speak of, White Guy. I was all wrapped up in it - which is how I know that it's fake and you're fooling yourself.
In other words you are a loser who could not make it with God.
You did not have an experience with the "redeeming power of Jesus" because if you did then you would be a Christian.
I know this because I had faith. I was full of it. And it was useless. It was only when I eliminated faith that I began to make anything of myself. They say "God is my co-pilot" but it was only when I took the wheel myself that I ever got anywhere.
If you had had faith then you would not be this "know-it-all" Atheist that you are today. The Bible says that God honors faith, apparently you had none, and apparently you had God on trial when, of course, we (you and I) are on trial.
Here is what God wants:
A person must come to Him on His terms.
His terms:
Pursue Him by faith, this means that you must assume His answer to your prayer and act in faith upon it until He brings it to pass. You apparently treated God as a butler and refused to act in faith day in and day out until He brought your prayer to pass. He will test each person via this formula until the day we die. At some point God honors ones faith and grants your prayer. Then you need another faith challenge. But what happens is that faith connects the person to God and His indwelt Spirit begins to abide which causes the born-again experience - something you never got Crashfrog because you quit.
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
The correction interpretation of this verse is that Jesus, when He says "commandments" He is talking in the overall context of the New Testament gospel (= way of faith to relate to God as opposed to Mosaic code of conduct, the Old Testament).
What happens when the way of faith is genuinely pursued ("commandment to have faith")?
The last phrase happens:
and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him
Since this never happened to you Crashfrog you never embarked on a real path of faith. As soon as God did not respond according to your time table you went your own way and here you are a convinced Atheist, that is, a loser who could not make it with God.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 3:34 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2007 12:22 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 126 by iceage, posted 09-12-2007 1:01 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 130 by AdminPhat, posted 09-12-2007 3:20 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 123 of 307 (421313)
09-12-2007 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object
09-11-2007 11:53 PM


Re: I know about Faith
In other words you are a loser who could not make it with God.
How could I? There's no such thing.
And quite frankly, Ray, you can take your ad hominem and cram it up your ass. You're doing exactly what I suspected you people would; you're scared to death at the idea that someone could escape your prison of bullshit, so you have to pretend like I was never in the prison, in the first place.
You did not have an experience with the "redeeming power of Jesus" because if you did then you would be a Christian.
Learn to read, Ray. I was a Christian, as were many others. Christians identical to yourself. The only difference is, you haven't left the faith yet. But you will, if you live long enough.
A person must come to Him on His terms.
I did. As it turns out, there's nothing to come to.
If even Mother Theresa can come to realize the truth that there is no God, there's little hope for your faith, don't you think?
Since this never happened to you Crashfrog you never embarked on a real path of faith.
But that's exactly what I embarked on. I had faith. I had genuine communion with God.
And then, I realized it was all self-delusion. Look, I felt it, Ray. I felt exactly what you feel now. But I'm smarter and wiser than you, which led me to the realization that I was deluding myself.
There's no aspect of faith that I "didn't get." I got it all. But I understand how you have to deny that to the last, out of your cowardice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-11-2007 11:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by arachnophilia, posted 09-12-2007 12:39 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 156 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-12-2007 10:00 PM crashfrog has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 124 of 307 (421315)
09-12-2007 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by crashfrog
09-12-2007 12:22 AM


Re: I know about Faith
And quite frankly, Ray, you can take your ad hominem and cram it up your ass.
oh shit! calling all bets, folks!
You did not have an experience with the "redeeming power of Jesus" because if you did then you would be a Christian.
Learn to read, Ray. I was a Christian, as were many others. Christians identical to yourself. The only difference is, you haven't left the faith yet. But you will, if you live long enough.
ah, this is apparently something you didn't quite experience about fundamentalism, and that most people never do until they're out of it. you see, if you can leave, well, evidently you weren't serious in the first place. yeah, you were never really a christian.
similar to "you can't quit! you're fired!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2007 12:22 AM crashfrog has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 125 of 307 (421316)
09-12-2007 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by crashfrog
09-11-2007 8:11 PM


Re: I know about Faith
i don't think faith is a choice.
It isn't until you make it one.
you make it sound like a bad habit. think of it more like a mental disorder.
i realize that analogy doesn't help my case, and i'm well aware that you're more than willing to run with it. but the man who says he never does anything the least bit irrational is either a liar, or delusional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 8:11 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2007 1:15 AM arachnophilia has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 126 of 307 (421320)
09-12-2007 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object
09-11-2007 11:53 PM


ewwww whats the smell....
Ray writes:
In other words you are a loser who could not make it with God
Strange choice of words. I have this vision of Ray and God on the couch and ... oh well no don't go there.
Ray writes:
and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him
Since this never happened to you Crashfrog you never embarked on a real path of faith. As soon as God did not respond according to your time table you went your own way and here you are a convinced Atheist, that is, a loser who could not make it with God.
And when is God's love going to manifest itself in you and from you out towards others? Judging other peoples experiences and calling them a loser is not a product of love, but just ole twisted, hateful, spiteful, vulgar Ray.... It is well demonstrated here and elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-11-2007 11:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 127 of 307 (421321)
09-12-2007 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by arachnophilia
09-12-2007 12:43 AM


Re: I know about Faith
you make it sound like a bad habit.
It is, but it's one you can break with practice.
You really, really don't have to go around having faith in things unseen, if you don't want to.
but the man who says he never does anything the least bit irrational is either a liar, or delusional.
Well, I agree, but that doesn't mean we have to go around consciously accepting propositions on the basis of no good evidence. I mean, nobody's twisting our arms, right? (Except for the Christians who are literally doing that.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by arachnophilia, posted 09-12-2007 12:43 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by iceage, posted 09-12-2007 1:38 AM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 09-12-2007 2:05 PM crashfrog has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 128 of 307 (421323)
09-12-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
09-12-2007 1:15 AM


Re: I know about Faith
arach writes:
you make it [faith] sound like a bad habit.
Crashfrom writes:
It is, but it's one you can break with practice.
I can relate to Arach.
As a result of some experiences (which I don't want to go into) in my formative years I find I still have some nagging sense of, or tendency to rely on "faith" or believing in a patriarchal anthropomorphic personal God. Silly as I know it is from all the research, reasoning and ceiling gazing that I have done. Maybe it is PTSD or imprinting I am not sure.
Or maybe it is because I am a skeptic's skeptic and I find myself being skeptical of being skeptical. I even find myself needing faith in not having faith. I have read and gained from all the "testimonies" here and have found they have increased this sort of faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2007 1:15 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Taz, posted 09-12-2007 12:53 PM iceage has not replied
 Message 139 by arachnophilia, posted 09-12-2007 2:13 PM iceage has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 129 of 307 (421325)
09-12-2007 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by mike the wiz
09-11-2007 7:47 PM


mike writes:
It's not logical jargons. Every logical point I have made has had educational value. I am not being mean, but it's that you don't understand what I am saying. I couldn't create working riddles with jargon.
Many here will think as you do because they either don't know the full extent of what I am saying, or they just think colloquially.
Mike, go back and read your very old posts. I've taken a look at them after someone here told me about your old self in chat. Back then, you believed that your bogus arguments made perfect sense and everyone else was a dumbass for not buying your bogus arguments. Nowadays, you are essentially saying the same damn thing about your logical jargons.
You have said this before - that I am trying to prove God with logic. Yet I know logic can't do that, and I have never argued it.
Not directly, no. I'll tell you what, I'm too lazy right now to actually track down your specific posts on the matter. However, I will be keeping my eyes open and point them out in the future. We'll see how long before you begin to try to use your logical jargon on the matter of god again.
Added by edit.
Here is an example. Your current logical jargons are little better than your bogus arguments in the past. The only change is you've dressed them up in jargonic language and labeled them "logic".
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD
Edited by Tazmanius Devilus, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by mike the wiz, posted 09-11-2007 7:47 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by mike the wiz, posted 09-12-2007 9:28 AM Taz has not replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 307 (421328)
09-12-2007 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object
09-11-2007 11:53 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Cold Foreign Object writes:
in other words you are a loser who could not make it with God.
A clear violation of the Forum Guidelines,Ray. This merits a suspension. For now, you have had a final warning.
Edited by AdminPhat, : edit

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  • This message is a reply to:
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    BobAliceEve
    Member (Idle past 5395 days)
    Posts: 107
    From: Seattle, WA, USA
    Joined: 02-03-2004


    Message 131 of 307 (421345)
    09-12-2007 5:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 91 by Archer Opteryx
    09-11-2007 9:07 AM


    Re: Which is supreme?
    Yes. I say that as honestly as does blugenes in message 89; during which journey I would have God's blessing.
    My God wants me to explore and thereby learn truth and Truth by my experience. The more I actually do that, the more I fulfill God's plan for me. I choose to activly participate in God's plan for me. In doing so, I choose God.
    You are right in saying that "You(I) don't know what the future will bring" regarding my(your) dis/belief in God. But which path you and I choose will not make my God jealous; in fact my God will be pleased that I have been activly involved.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 91 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 9:07 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 140 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-12-2007 2:23 PM BobAliceEve has replied

    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4752
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    Message 132 of 307 (421354)
    09-12-2007 9:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Taz
    09-12-2007 2:23 AM


    That link you posted was from early 2003!
    It's nearly 2008, Taz.
    Not directly, no. I'll tell you what, I'm too lazy right now to actually track down your specific posts on the matter. However, I will be keeping my eyes open and point them out in the future. We'll see how long before you begin to try to use your logical jargon on the matter of god again.
    That's begging the question, because "again" assumes I done it in the first place without actually proving I did. And if yu think the 2003-link proves it, then that's a pre-hoc error, because that was before I used logic. Here's a link to the former fallacy - just incase you think logic is "jargon".
    HERE
    Also, you said "logical jargon" ad nauseum. Here's what ad nauseum means;
    argumentum ad nauseum
    link writes:
    But no matter how many times you repeat something, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place
    Read the links - but read into them. Don't just read the language - do the actual thinking required to understand them according to the notation of logic.
    Your posts consist of epithets, instead of reasoning.
    "Bigot"
    "Jargon"
    Big words are no substitute for genuine sound reasoning.
    Or am I being obtuse? Oh - let's see what an independent source says!
    link writes:
    A loaded word is like a loaded gun, and its evaluative meaning is the bullet. [SNIP] - The fallacy is committed either when an arguer attempts to use loaded words in place of an argument, or when an arguee makes an evaluation based on the colorful language in which an argument is clothed, rather than on the merits of the argument itself.
    Your posts consist of colourful accusatory language. Your style is to point to specific examples of bad evil Christians and calim that all units of the whole are therefore guilty. (I apologise fo rthe grammatical tautology, bad evil Christians.
    We seen this when you said that ignorance go had in hand with being christian, etc...That was a false conditional.
    IF you're a Christian, THEN you're ignorant.
    Notice you don't have toprove any of this formally?
    OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
    Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
    AdminPD
    Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
    Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Taz, posted 09-12-2007 2:23 AM Taz has not replied

    Taz
    Member (Idle past 3292 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 133 of 307 (421383)
    09-12-2007 12:44 PM


    mike writes:
    Your posts consist of colourful accusatory language. Your style is to point to specific examples of bad evil Christians and calim that all units of the whole are therefore guilty. (I apologise fo rthe grammatical tautology, bad evil Christians.
    Doesn't it strike you odd that in every generation it has always been the overwhelming majority of christians that are at the forefront of campaigns against human rights of some kind? When I pointed to specific examples, I meant them as representing the much larger group that is out there actively working against some kind of human rights. That's what I was referring to when I said you guys remind me not to become a christian again.
    I think I've pointed out this example before. I'm sure there were a few nazis here and there that were good people. But that doesn't change the fact that the nazis in the larger picture represented a state of extreme evil.
    Note that I am not saying christians are like nazis. You guys are obviously not. But in a similar way, I'm sure there are good christians out there. But the fact that you guys as a group keep fighting against some of the most basic human right issues tell me something about the faith as a whole.
    Admin, this issue between me and mike is very much on topic. We are talking about me being an ex-christian and why I changed.
    IF you're a Christian, THEN you're ignorant.
    Nope, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the evidence I've seen so far points to the fact that christians as a group tend to lean toward ignorance. We don't see anti-science atheists around do we? We don't see atheist organizations keep trying to push through legislations to curb human rights do we?
    Notice you don't have toprove any of this formally?
    Well, this is informal logic. There's no such thing as "prove". However, I can show you plenty of examples, plenty of evidence, and plenty of bleedingly obvious facts about this issue.
    For a starter, when was the last time you heard anything about a christian rally or support of gay rights advocates? It's not just that there are christians that fight their hardest to keep gay people in the second class citizentry, it's also the rest that don't say anything against the christians are wreaking havoc. Heck, you guys (the american ones anyway) went out and voted in masses for Bush because he was Da Man that's gonna keep them gays unrepresented.
    The evidence clearly shows that christian as a group are doing more harm to democracy than not, and I should stay clear of christianity if I want to not go down this rabbit hole.

    Disclaimer:
    Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
    He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by mike the wiz, posted 09-12-2007 1:10 PM Taz has not replied

    Taz
    Member (Idle past 3292 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 134 of 307 (421384)
    09-12-2007 12:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 128 by iceage
    09-12-2007 1:38 AM


    Re: I know about Faith
    iceage writes:
    Silly as I know it is from all the research, reasoning and ceiling gazing that I have done.
    I think we all have that voice deep down that tell us we like having some kind of supernatural protector watching over us at times. I must admit that there are times when I do wish deep down that there is such thing as fate. When I do actually pretend to myself that god is watching me, I must admit to feel a lot better in times of need. This, of course, doesn't change the fact that it's nothing more than my personal need for a supernatural protector and that my mind has created a delusion to satisfy this need.

    Disclaimer:
    Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
    He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 128 by iceage, posted 09-12-2007 1:38 AM iceage has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 137 by arachnophilia, posted 09-12-2007 2:02 PM Taz has not replied

    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4752
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    Message 135 of 307 (421389)
    09-12-2007 1:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 133 by Taz
    09-12-2007 12:44 PM


    Irrefutable one goeth
    This concludes my participation at EvC. There are too many issues here. I sense a certain futility in this discussion.
    Deep down I think you're a good guy Gasby, but I think you're a bit cynical because of your former experiences of Christianity.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by Taz, posted 09-12-2007 12:44 PM Taz has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by pbee, posted 09-12-2007 1:37 PM mike the wiz has not replied

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