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Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
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Author | Topic: People - I /was/ a Christian | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
pbee Member (Idle past 6056 days) Posts: 339 Joined: |
I was under the impression that EVC was a debate forum. Can such controversy come in any other way?
Under the circumstances, a best case scenario would be that your argument stands to reason. Even if that means on a personal level.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I think we all have that voice deep down that tell us we like having some kind of supernatural protector watching over us at times. i think that to some extent it's hard wired into the human neurochemistry. not to the jaynes extent, but i think it's fairly obvious that the human brain works in ways that often defy logic and rationality. especially when we start throwing emotions into the mix.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
you make it sound like a bad habit. It is, but it's one you can break with practice. that's like "falling in love is a bad habit." yeah, you could probably break it if you tried.
Well, I agree, but that doesn't mean we have to go around consciously accepting propositions on the basis of no good evidence. that's just my point -- it's not a conscious decision. people don't rationally accept the irrational. creationsim tries to make it sound that way, but they're liars about everything else too.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1372 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I can relate to Arach. As a result of some experiences (which I don't want to go into) in my formative years I find I still have some nagging sense of, or tendency to rely on "faith" or believing in a patriarchal anthropomorphic personal God. Silly as I know it is from all the research, reasoning and ceiling gazing that I have done. Maybe it is PTSD or imprinting I am not sure. it's hard to get rid of, yes, when it's a certain kind of faith.
Or maybe it is because I am a skeptic's skeptic and I find myself being skeptical of being skeptical. there is line between skepticism and activism. the skeptic looks at all the "evidence" and says "the ecosystem of loch ness does not appear to be able to support a large marine reptile, and all of the photos and videos are adequately explained by trickery or natural phenomenon, therefor there probably is not a large scientifically undiscovered animal in the lake." the advocate says "the witnesses are liars. there never was and never will be a 'nessie' and you're an idiot if you think it might be a possibility" those are two very different statements. one can phrase and logically argue that the abscence of evidence helps argue for evidence of abscence in a way that remains open to new evidence. or one can go straight for the throat, make definitive statements, and not provide any real argument or justification. one is skepticism. the other might as well be faith. Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3626 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
BobAliceEve: Yes. You say you are allowed to follow the truth where it leads, even if doing so makes you an atheist. You say God will not abandon you even then, because as long as you are pursuing truth, you are doing what God wants you to do. It is fair to presume, then, that our colleagues in this forum who express atheistic views do so with God's blessing. After all, these views were adopted as a result of the quest for truth and the desire to be honest.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3956 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
It is fair to presume, then, that our colleagues in this forum who express atheistic views do so with God's blessing. it is an argument i've made and heard before. it requires a release of this judgemental, angry father idea, but i don't think it's too much of a stretch. Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
People - I was a Christian. A fundamentalist, creationist one. Biblical inerrancy. Redeeming power of Jesus. Gave my life to Christ. All that stuff. I've been there, people. I do know, truly, what you speak of, White Guy. I was all wrapped up in it - which is how I know that it's fake and you're fooling yourself. I was perhaps the opposite of you. I saw no good reason to believe in God. I modeled after Sen. Jess Ventura's declaration when he said, "Religion is a crutch for the weak." In fact, just about all the anti-theistic arguments made in here were on my lips only a few years ago. Heck, I was so proud of the notion that a lifelong memorial is adorned on my body to this day-- a crucifix with a banner streaming from the horizontal beam containing the word, "Agnostic," along with an illuminated all-seeing eye, representative of the Almighty. Of course virtually all of my friends were absolutely flabbergasted that me, of all people, would have ended up writing books on the subject and going to Bible college. Most of them took it well, however, to this day, there is slight apprehension on their part. Its palpable. But I can't help what happened to me. Nor could I explain that which is totally ineffable and indescribable. Its almost maddening to be that close to something only to have those around you incapable of wrapping their mind around the concept. As for you Crash, I have tremendous hope for you. I think you are always teetering on the cusp of revival. And your hiatus may be understood in greater detail after some introspection. I wish that very much for you. Naturally, you might scoff at such a notion because it would tacitly assert that you are wrong about something. Obviously no one desires to be ignorant of anything. But I mean it in a kind way. I hope you take well to the sentiment. If nothing else, I am wishing you well on your journey. And perhaps though you think I'm horribly deluded, maybe, just maybe, you wish the same of me-- that I would snap back in to reality. Maybe in some small way we wish the best for one another despite the controversial arguments that have uncovered a rift. Senator Ventura's argument to some degree still rings true in many ways. But another quote rings even truer for me. "A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion." -Francis Bacon "I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." -Leonardo da Vinci
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Ihategod Member (Idle past 6058 days) Posts: 235 Joined: |
God is truth.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Let me explain the question to you, Vash.
Suppose, just suppose for the sake of argument, that in truth there was no God. Would you prefer to believe in a fictional god or would you prefer to acknowledge a reality without god? I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger
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Ihategod Member (Idle past 6058 days) Posts: 235 Joined: |
Well I hope the best for you while you burn in hell. I prefer mild warmth personally.
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Ihategod Member (Idle past 6058 days) Posts: 235 Joined: |
Yeah, but God is truth, so to seperate God from truth is a thing not possible. If there was this truth, then it would be God. If God didn't exist, we wouldn't exist, there would be no mind to ponder or heart to love or whatever other b.s.
In your little world where God doesn't exist and we are only made up of the material we see. Then I would much prefer to believe in truth than some fucking stupid god who didn't give a shit. fuck that god in your world, he owes me big.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5937 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Highestevolvedwhiteguy
Well I hope the best for you while you burn in hell. There we go with the offering of that fuzzy down home Christian love for a fellow human.
I prefer mild warmth personally. That would figure. It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
Charles Darwin
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Well, this is what I notice about posters here at EvC.
There are people who seem to, as a group, nearly always have their facts straight about science, history, and just about any other subject they choose to inform themselves about. They tend to be nimble thinkers and articulate writers, able to see many nuances and able to tolerate ambiguity and uncertainty. They nearly always seem to be on the side of human rights, freedom, and fairness for everyone, and who seem happier, less judgemental, more forgiving and accepting and more generous towards their fellow human beings. There is another group which I notice seems to be wrong over and over again when it comes to science, history, and many other subjects, and rarely do they appear to be terribly concerned with their lack of accurate information. These people tend to debate issues poorly and illogically, leaving gaping holes in their arguments which are easily ripped apart. They seem to be a strange combination of ignorance and arrogance; both fearful and overconfident. They tend to see the world in black and white, good and evil. They tend to have a strong need for some kind of authority figure to tell them how to live and what to think. They tend to be less tolerant and more small-minded; less generous, less apt to want others to have freedom and more apt to embrace authoritarianism. They tend to be more sexist and racist and in general, be more bigoted. Guess which group is more attractive to me? Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Is it possible that you are wrong about that?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
that's just my point -- it's not a conscious decision. It is once you know you're doing it, Arach. I realize that's the sticking point - becoming aware of your own bad assumptions - but you seem like you're past that point. I mean, once you've said to yourself "oh, damn. That wasn't something I knew, that was just something I accepted because it felt right, or because I wanted it to be true", you can consciously evaluate the proposition and come to a conscious decision as to whether or not it's supported by evidence. Sure, we all have unquestioned assumptions. Faith is conscious, though, because "faith" is the rationale people use to defend those assumptions when they are challenged. "Oh, I can't prove or defend it; I just accept it on faith." It's an exercise in refusing to justify one's assumptions. How is that not conscious? I'm not saying you should wake up tomorrow with no unchallenged assumptions. I'm saying that you can make the choice to stop defending those bad assumptions with "faith." What's stopping you?
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