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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
pbee
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 136 of 307 (421392)
09-12-2007 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by mike the wiz
09-12-2007 1:10 PM


Re: Irrefutable one goeth
I was under the impression that EVC was a debate forum. Can such controversy come in any other way?
Under the circumstances, a best case scenario would be that your argument stands to reason. Even if that means on a personal level.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by mike the wiz, posted 09-12-2007 1:10 PM mike the wiz has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 137 of 307 (421394)
09-12-2007 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Taz
09-12-2007 12:53 PM


Re: I know about Faith
I think we all have that voice deep down that tell us we like having some kind of supernatural protector watching over us at times.
i think that to some extent it's hard wired into the human neurochemistry. not to the jaynes extent, but i think it's fairly obvious that the human brain works in ways that often defy logic and rationality. especially when we start throwing emotions into the mix.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 138 of 307 (421395)
09-12-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
09-12-2007 1:15 AM


Re: I know about Faith
you make it sound like a bad habit.
It is, but it's one you can break with practice.
that's like "falling in love is a bad habit." yeah, you could probably break it if you tried.
Well, I agree, but that doesn't mean we have to go around consciously accepting propositions on the basis of no good evidence.
that's just my point -- it's not a conscious decision. people don't rationally accept the irrational. creationsim tries to make it sound that way, but they're liars about everything else too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2007 1:15 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2007 6:24 PM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 139 of 307 (421396)
09-12-2007 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by iceage
09-12-2007 1:38 AM


Re: I know about Faith
I can relate to Arach.
As a result of some experiences (which I don't want to go into) in my formative years I find I still have some nagging sense of, or tendency to rely on "faith" or believing in a patriarchal anthropomorphic personal God. Silly as I know it is from all the research, reasoning and ceiling gazing that I have done. Maybe it is PTSD or imprinting I am not sure.
it's hard to get rid of, yes, when it's a certain kind of faith.
Or maybe it is because I am a skeptic's skeptic and I find myself being skeptical of being skeptical.
there is line between skepticism and activism. the skeptic looks at all the "evidence" and says "the ecosystem of loch ness does not appear to be able to support a large marine reptile, and all of the photos and videos are adequately explained by trickery or natural phenomenon, therefor there probably is not a large scientifically undiscovered animal in the lake." the advocate says "the witnesses are liars. there never was and never will be a 'nessie' and you're an idiot if you think it might be a possibility"
those are two very different statements. one can phrase and logically argue that the abscence of evidence helps argue for evidence of abscence in a way that remains open to new evidence. or one can go straight for the throat, make definitive statements, and not provide any real argument or justification.
one is skepticism. the other might as well be faith.
Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 140 of 307 (421397)
09-12-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by BobAliceEve
09-12-2007 5:46 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
BobAliceEve: Yes.
You say you are allowed to follow the truth where it leads, even if doing so makes you an atheist. You say God will not abandon you even then, because as long as you are pursuing truth, you are doing what God wants you to do.
It is fair to presume, then, that our colleagues in this forum who express atheistic views do so with God's blessing. After all, these views were adopted as a result of the quest for truth and the desire to be honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by BobAliceEve, posted 09-12-2007 5:46 AM BobAliceEve has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 141 of 307 (421405)
09-12-2007 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Archer Opteryx
09-12-2007 2:23 PM


Re: Which is supreme?
It is fair to presume, then, that our colleagues in this forum who express atheistic views do so with God's blessing.
it is an argument i've made and heard before.
it requires a release of this judgemental, angry father idea, but i don't think it's too much of a stretch.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 307 (421418)
09-12-2007 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by crashfrog
09-10-2007 3:34 PM


Re: I know about Faith
People - I was a Christian. A fundamentalist, creationist one. Biblical inerrancy. Redeeming power of Jesus. Gave my life to Christ.
All that stuff. I've been there, people. I do know, truly, what you speak of, White Guy. I was all wrapped up in it - which is how I know that it's fake and you're fooling yourself.
I was perhaps the opposite of you. I saw no good reason to believe in God. I modeled after Sen. Jess Ventura's declaration when he said, "Religion is a crutch for the weak."
In fact, just about all the anti-theistic arguments made in here were on my lips only a few years ago. Heck, I was so proud of the notion that a lifelong memorial is adorned on my body to this day-- a crucifix with a banner streaming from the horizontal beam containing the word, "Agnostic," along with an illuminated all-seeing eye, representative of the Almighty.
Of course virtually all of my friends were absolutely flabbergasted that me, of all people, would have ended up writing books on the subject and going to Bible college. Most of them took it well, however, to this day, there is slight apprehension on their part. Its palpable.
But I can't help what happened to me. Nor could I explain that which is totally ineffable and indescribable. Its almost maddening to be that close to something only to have those around you incapable of wrapping their mind around the concept.
As for you Crash, I have tremendous hope for you. I think you are always teetering on the cusp of revival. And your hiatus may be understood in greater detail after some introspection.
I wish that very much for you. Naturally, you might scoff at such a notion because it would tacitly assert that you are wrong about something. Obviously no one desires to be ignorant of anything. But I mean it in a kind way. I hope you take well to the sentiment. If nothing else, I am wishing you well on your journey.
And perhaps though you think I'm horribly deluded, maybe, just maybe, you wish the same of me-- that I would snap back in to reality. Maybe in some small way we wish the best for one another despite the controversial arguments that have uncovered a rift.
Senator Ventura's argument to some degree still rings true in many ways. But another quote rings even truer for me.
"A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion." -Francis Bacon

"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." -Leonardo da Vinci

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 3:34 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by nator, posted 09-12-2007 6:12 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 151 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2007 6:32 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Ihategod
Member (Idle past 6030 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 143 of 307 (421428)
09-12-2007 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Archer Opteryx
09-11-2007 4:36 AM


Re: Which is supreme?
God is truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-11-2007 4:36 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Chiroptera, posted 09-12-2007 6:01 PM Ihategod has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 307 (421430)
09-12-2007 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Ihategod
09-12-2007 5:58 PM


Re: Which is supreme?
Let me explain the question to you, Vash.
Suppose, just suppose for the sake of argument, that in truth there was no God. Would you prefer to believe in a fictional god or would you prefer to acknowledge a reality without god?

I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Ihategod, posted 09-12-2007 5:58 PM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ihategod
Member (Idle past 6030 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 145 of 307 (421431)
09-12-2007 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by crashfrog
09-11-2007 1:50 AM


Re: I know about Faith
Well I hope the best for you while you burn in hell. I prefer mild warmth personally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2007 1:50 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by sidelined, posted 09-12-2007 6:11 PM Ihategod has not replied
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Ihategod
Member (Idle past 6030 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 146 of 307 (421433)
09-12-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Chiroptera
09-12-2007 6:01 PM


Re: Which is supreme?
Yeah, but God is truth, so to seperate God from truth is a thing not possible. If there was this truth, then it would be God. If God didn't exist, we wouldn't exist, there would be no mind to ponder or heart to love or whatever other b.s.
In your little world where God doesn't exist and we are only made up of the material we see. Then I would much prefer to believe in truth than some fucking stupid god who didn't give a shit. fuck that god in your world, he owes me big.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 147 of 307 (421434)
09-12-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Ihategod
09-12-2007 6:07 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Highestevolvedwhiteguy
Well I hope the best for you while you burn in hell.
There we go with the offering of that fuzzy down home Christian love for a fellow human.
I prefer mild warmth personally.
That would figure.

It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Ihategod, posted 09-12-2007 6:07 PM Ihategod has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 148 of 307 (421435)
09-12-2007 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Hyroglyphx
09-12-2007 5:08 PM


Re: I know about Faith
Well, this is what I notice about posters here at EvC.
There are people who seem to, as a group, nearly always have their facts straight about science, history, and just about any other subject they choose to inform themselves about. They tend to be nimble thinkers and articulate writers, able to see many nuances and able to tolerate ambiguity and uncertainty. They nearly always seem to be on the side of human rights, freedom, and fairness for everyone, and who seem happier, less judgemental, more forgiving and accepting and more generous towards their fellow human beings.
There is another group which I notice seems to be wrong over and over again when it comes to science, history, and many other subjects, and rarely do they appear to be terribly concerned with their lack of accurate information. These people tend to debate issues poorly and illogically, leaving gaping holes in their arguments which are easily ripped apart. They seem to be a strange combination of ignorance and arrogance; both fearful and overconfident. They tend to see the world in black and white, good and evil. They tend to have a strong need for some kind of authority figure to tell them how to live and what to think. They tend to be less tolerant and more small-minded; less generous, less apt to want others to have freedom and more apt to embrace authoritarianism. They tend to be more sexist and racist and in general, be more bigoted.
Guess which group is more attractive to me?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-12-2007 5:08 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 149 of 307 (421436)
09-12-2007 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Ihategod
09-12-2007 6:11 PM


Re: Which is supreme?
quote:
Yeah, but God is truth, so to seperate God from truth is a thing not possible.
Is it possible that you are wrong about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Ihategod, posted 09-12-2007 6:11 PM Ihategod has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 150 of 307 (421441)
09-12-2007 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by arachnophilia
09-12-2007 2:05 PM


Re: I know about Faith
that's just my point -- it's not a conscious decision.
It is once you know you're doing it, Arach. I realize that's the sticking point - becoming aware of your own bad assumptions - but you seem like you're past that point.
I mean, once you've said to yourself "oh, damn. That wasn't something I knew, that was just something I accepted because it felt right, or because I wanted it to be true", you can consciously evaluate the proposition and come to a conscious decision as to whether or not it's supported by evidence.
Sure, we all have unquestioned assumptions. Faith is conscious, though, because "faith" is the rationale people use to defend those assumptions when they are challenged. "Oh, I can't prove or defend it; I just accept it on faith." It's an exercise in refusing to justify one's assumptions.
How is that not conscious? I'm not saying you should wake up tomorrow with no unchallenged assumptions. I'm saying that you can make the choice to stop defending those bad assumptions with "faith." What's stopping you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by arachnophilia, posted 09-12-2007 2:05 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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