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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
AdminQuetzal
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 307 (421655)
09-13-2007 4:06 PM


Crash, Arach, Ray, and anyone else who feels...
...the need to insult, bash, belittle, or flame from here on out any other poster will get a long suspension. Although I admit that I haven't been adminning as much as I should have been (physical constraints, not lack of interest) recently, I am absolutely flabbergasted that this thread has run on this long without some rather extreme sanctions being handed out. We're looking at half this thread being taken up by flames between three posters. That stops NOW!

Either contribute to this thread through reasoned discussion of the OP, or refrain from posting. No more warnings.


macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 197 of 307 (421656)
09-13-2007 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by crashfrog
09-13-2007 1:20 PM


Re: Runaway Train of thought!
Basically, just that you can be an ex-Christian and an ex-believer; that the fact that you are not those things now doesn't invalidate the fact that you were those things, back then.

absolutely. but i'd argue that it's also possible to be an ex-atheist and an ex-unbeliever and that the fact that you are not those things now doesn't invalidate the fact that you were those things, back then.

the problem is that your argument here is to decry those who say that your experience isn't valuable because you can't understand them and that you are intellectually or spiritually inferior because you fail to be what they are, and at the same time you scream at them because their experience isn't valuable because they can't understand you and that they are intellectually or spiritually inferior because they fail to be what you are.

it's an untenable and wretched position, this "i'm right and you suck because you don't agree with me" position, no matter what side it's fought from.

i'm really just concerned because i understand what your goal is here. it's to release people from the prison you feel they've created for themselves. but it really doesn't help you to say the same argument back. if everyone sucks for not agreeing with everyone else, i want nothing to do with any of it, and i'm sure i'm not the only one. saying i suck and i should stop sucking isn't going to make me agree with you. it's going to drive me further away. this is what faith never got and what you seem inable to hear. but that doesn't surprise me. it's a common failing of humanity and our self-righteousness.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by crashfrog, posted 09-13-2007 1:20 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by mark24, posted 09-13-2007 7:26 PM macaroniandcheese has responded
 Message 220 by crashfrog, posted 09-14-2007 3:17 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 15329
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 198 of 307 (421666)
09-13-2007 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Hyroglyphx
09-13-2007 8:08 AM


Re: Biblical Fundamentalist
quote:

But I agree with Buzsaw here, that a fundamentalist Christian is someone who steadfastly promotes the gospel as it was presented.

quote:

We don't base Christianity on other Christians who are every bit as fallible as any other human being-- rather we base it on Christ alone who uncovers those faults. Indeed, I echo Paul's sentiments here when he said that if anyone brings to you another gospel other than the one presented to you by Yeshua, then let it be anathema.

The actual defining characteristics of Christian Fundamentalism as it is usually thought of, are an insistence on Biblical inerrancy and a strong preference for a literal interpretation of the Bible. Those aren't Jesus' teachings. So is Christian Fundamentalism really Christian by your standard ?

And in fact I find that Fundamentalists CAN'T even be trusted to accurately report what the Bible says. I find errors, strained and even impossible readings.

To give a recent example of a strained reading, take your idea that the Tribulation follows the "time of the Gentiles". THat isn't what Luke says, not if you compare Luke's account of the Olivet Discourse with Mark and Matthew's accounts. Luke is the only one to mention a "time of the Gentiles" and the only one who doesn't mention the Tribulation explicitly - but we can still find a reference to it. Luke 21:21-23 parallels Mark 13:14-17 and Matthew 24:17-19. There is the Tribulation in Luke - if it is anywhere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2007 8:08 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 199 of 307 (421678)
09-13-2007 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by macaroniandcheese
09-13-2007 4:06 PM


Re: Runaway Train of thought!
The lack of capitalisation is what sucks.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-13-2007 4:06 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-13-2007 7:28 PM mark24 has not yet responded
 Message 202 by AdminNem, posted 09-13-2007 7:58 PM mark24 has not yet responded
 Message 206 by AdminQuetzal, posted 09-13-2007 10:06 PM mark24 has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2160 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 200 of 307 (421680)
09-13-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by mark24
09-13-2007 7:26 PM


Re: Runaway Train of thought!
piss off. i've had enough of you people and your stupid omg i can't read that cause it's not capitalized!!!!11omgwtfbbq.

grow up you fucking cripple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by mark24, posted 09-13-2007 7:26 PM mark24 has not yet responded

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5787
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 201 of 307 (421681)
09-13-2007 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by nator
09-13-2007 9:03 AM


Re: I know about Faith
The thing that most believers are not aware of, though, is the very strong human ability to deceive ourselves through various sorts of bias and selective thinking.

Yes, to a large extent I think that afflicts the lot of us, theistic and atheistic alike. But that doesn't mean that everyone lives in a constant state of delusion either. We're all subject to personal biases whether we like it or not. The objective, I suppose, is objectivity itself.


"I love those who can smile in trouble, who can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death." -Leonardo da Vinci
This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by nator, posted 09-13-2007 9:03 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by nator, posted 09-13-2007 11:05 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 307 (421683)
09-13-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by mark24
09-13-2007 7:26 PM


Mark24 DO NOT retaliate
The lack of capitalisation is what sucks.

Do not respond to Brennakimi's response to you. I am handling the situation.

However, it should be noted that Brenna's lack of capitalization is not the focus of this thread, nor does any rule exist which stipulates that members must use capitalization. Therefore, the mention of such superfluous information is not necessary, especially in light that she has expressed, on numerous occasions, that she doesn't need to be scolded on her lack of punctuation. It only exacerbates the situation.

Since Brenna has been suspended for her ad hominem, especially after AdminQuetzal has issued a warning, there is no need to exacerbate it further.

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.


Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 199 by mark24, posted 09-13-2007 7:26 PM mark24 has not yet responded

    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 3648
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.8


    Message 203 of 307 (421686)
    09-13-2007 8:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 184 by Hyroglyphx
    09-13-2007 8:08 AM


    Re: Biblical Fundamentalist
    The sad thing that I see is people using that as some sort of evidentiary claim that Christianity itself is inherently wrong. To which I reply: Well, is that evidence of Christ being wrong, or of some His followers who manipulated His words for their own gain?

    We don't base Christianity on other Christians who are every bit as fallible as any other human being-- rather we base it on Christ alone who uncovers those faults. Indeed, I echo Paul's sentiments here when he said that if anyone brings to you another gospel other than the one presented to you by Yeshua, then let it be anathema.

    What people love to do is point out how some avowed Christian says or does something counter to their own ascribed theology, only to bring the whole of Christendom in to ill-repute. That kind of reasoning is flawed, as it only serves to confirm that the people espousing it are wrong, not the doctrine itself.

    In an ideal world, every belief system would be judged solely on its own merits and not on the those who have misused it. But this is not an ideal world and the actions of Christians do indeed influence everyone's perception of Christianity and of its merits.

    And also, doesn't the Bible, through the Matthew 7:20 test, instruct us to judge a theology by what it produces? Aren't the actions of Christians some of the fruits by which we are to know Christianity? Especially when those actions are the result of the doctrine that those Christians were taught?

    Just what is it that makes so many Christians misbehave in almost the exact same manner? Were they that way to start with and there's something about Christianity that draws them all to it? Or were they transformed into such people by the teachings of their church? I believe that it is the latter case. For example, over the decades I have witnessed much dishonesty and deception and even outright lying being practiced by creation-science-ites. It is the very nature of "creation science" which leads them to such transgressions. Plus, their church leaders teach them to use those lies. An evangelical I met on-line, Carl Drews, tells of how he had to leave his church because the pastors supported using lies (see http://www.theistic-evolution.com/mystory.html) and the members cared nothing of the truth, but were instead eager to use anything that sounded like it supported their position. In an email, he described their intent to me as (paraphrasing from memory), "gathering ammo for proselytizing". To put that into proper perspective, Glenn Morton posted a newsgroup post by one Scott Rauch who said:

    quote:
    I still hold some anger because I believe the evangelical Christian community did not properly prepare me for the creation/evolution debate. They gave me a gun loaded with blanks, and sent me out. I was creamed."

    Now of course, no Christian has ever followed Christianity itself, but rather they have all followed their own theologies. Everybody builds his own theology and each person follows his own theology. Of course, most try to model that theology after an ideal standard, which would be the doctrine of their church. But in order to follow that doctrine, they must know it. That means that they must learn it and, in that process, will fail to get it absolutely right. They will be ignorant of many parts of that doctrine and will probably remain ignorant of at least some parts. They will misunderstand a lot and must therefore discover what they misunderstand and endeavor to correct their understanding. Ironically, in order to uncover their misunderstandings they must constantly question what they believe, yet one of the beliefs that many have is that they must not question their beliefs. Hence most misunderstandings are never corrected.

    The problem is compounded by the fact that they are never actually taught their church's doctrine, but rather their teachers teach them the teachers' theologies, complete with the teachers' own misunderstandings of the actual doctrine. And this has been happening for generation after generation. Even the church's actual doctrine is build from the founders' and early generations' interpretation of that upon which they tried to base that doctrine, complete with their own particular misunderstandings. As Thomas Paine so aptly expressed in The Age of Reason:

    quote:
    Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

    No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it.

    It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication- after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.

    [after giving several examples] - it is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not choose to rest my belief upon such evidence.


    I differ with Mr. Paine in that, due to the first person's need to try to understand that Revelation which he had received and the inevitable result that he will not understand it completely correctly and accurately. And hence it would have become hearsay even to that first person.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 184 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2007 8:08 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

      
    Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 204 of 307 (421688)
    09-13-2007 9:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 191 by crashfrog
    09-13-2007 1:20 PM


    Re: Runaway Train of thought!
    Crashfrog writes:

    Also I'm still waiting for all my supposed legions of detractors to pop in and tell me what's wrong with me. It's still an open invitation, and I promise not to bite.

    Do you recall what I said back in message 53 regarding folks like you who crashed on Christ and Christianity?

    Buzsaw writes:

    I've said the above to say I believe had the folks who opted out gotten grounded into the whole Bible, like Jesus's parable of the seeds, they'd have been in good soil and would have gotten established in Biblical truth as I have confident that it is the way of inner joy, peace and eternal life. One does not get established into Christianity just by going to church once a week and listening to sermons. One gets established by doing the homework seriously as a serious runner works out daily. There is that evil one, Satan who deceives. Thus the church may lead you astray unless you're into it yourself studiously.

    www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=716&m=31#53 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=716&m=31#53">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=716&m=31#53


    BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
    The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 191 by crashfrog, posted 09-13-2007 1:20 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-13-2007 9:56 PM Buzsaw has responded

    Cold Foreign Object 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1279 days)
    Posts: 3417
    Joined: 11-21-2003


    Message 205 of 307 (421697)
    09-13-2007 9:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 204 by Buzsaw
    09-13-2007 9:05 PM


    Re: Runaway Frog
    Buzsaw speaking to Crashfrog writes:

    Do you recall what I said back in message 53 regarding folks like you who crashed on Christ and Christianity?

    I have already posted a message pointing out that Froggy is on the run. He replied with an excuse citing all the responses in this thread. The point is that he is running, ignoring the posts that piss him off, and in the posts he replies to he ignores the most critical points.

    His main "argument" is a perfect self-contradicting circle: "I was a real believer, knew God, but it was really a delusion, therefore the same is true with you." Again, Froggy has evaded the quality posts and their best content and answered and engaged the muddled and convoluted mind of Arach (= a "closet" Atheist).

    Buzsaw: my earlier comments about Fundamentalism are not in any way directed at you. We disagree theologically and denominationally as do many Christians - big deal. I have read many posts by the Atheist-evolutionist element here at EvC condemning you with harsh invective. This means you are uttlerly correct and on the right path in my eyes. Whoever the evolutionists condemn are the most right, this is invulnerable logic. You are a great Creationist and Designist, which is the subject here at EvC and I do not want our enemies to misconstrue theological difference between you and I to mean that we do not support one another. I think that you agree too.

    Ray


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 09-13-2007 9:05 PM Buzsaw has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 207 by bluegenes, posted 09-13-2007 10:23 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded
     Message 208 by iceage, posted 09-13-2007 10:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
     Message 257 by Buzsaw, posted 09-15-2007 5:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
     Message 258 by Rahvin, posted 09-15-2007 11:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

      
    AdminQuetzal
    Inactive Member


    Message 206 of 307 (421698)
    09-13-2007 10:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 199 by mark24
    09-13-2007 7:26 PM


    Re: Runaway Train of thought!
    I somewhat regret that things got this far. However, in the interests of fairness, and further to brenna's suspension, mark24 you are hereby awarded a 9h, 47min suspension for a completely unnecessary comment. The end of your suspension coincides with the end of brenna's.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 199 by mark24, posted 09-13-2007 7:26 PM mark24 has not yet responded

    bluegenes
    Member (Idle past 709 days)
    Posts: 3119
    From: U.K.
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 207 of 307 (421705)
    09-13-2007 10:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object
    09-13-2007 9:56 PM


    Ex-Christians
    CFO writes:

    the muddled and convoluted mind of Arach (= a "closet" Atheist).

    How many Christians have you ex-communicated on this thread, Ray? If you keep on like this all your life, you'll be the only one in heaven when your time comes. You'll be lonely.

    Are Catholics Christians?

    Whoever the evolutionists condemn are the most right, this is invulnerable logic.

    No evolutionist would condemn you. We think you're great, Ray. You impart invaluable wisdom to us all. How would we know who is or is not a Christian without your guidance?

    Keep up the good work.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-13-2007 9:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 250 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-15-2007 2:00 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4147 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 208 of 307 (421708)
    09-13-2007 10:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object
    09-13-2007 9:56 PM


    Invulnerable illogic logic
    Ray writes:

    Is main "argument" is a perfect self-contradicting circle: "I was a real believer, knew God, but it was really a delusion, therefore the same is true with you."

    How is that self-contradicting? I have read of people with similar testimonies concerning a falling away from Islam, Mormanism, Hinduism, etc. They were a real believers at one time but later realized they were living in self-delusion and walked away. There is nothing self-contradicting about this experience, sometimes it is just growing up and becoming wiser.

    Ray writes:

    Whoever the evolutionists condemn are the most right, this is invulnerable logic.

    Think about this a little. If this is "invulnerable logic" then all of superstition is right-on in your opinion.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-13-2007 9:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

    nator
    Member (Idle past 401 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 209 of 307 (421711)
    09-13-2007 11:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 201 by Hyroglyphx
    09-13-2007 7:34 PM


    Re: I know about Faith
    The thing that most believers are not aware of, though, is the very strong human ability to deceive ourselves through various sorts of bias and selective thinking.

    quote:
    Yes, to a large extent I think that afflicts the lot of us, theistic and atheistic alike.

    There is reason to think that it tends to affect religious people more than it does the non-religious. People who have come to Atheism through rational, logical, deliberate examination of the evidence tend to use that sort of thought processes in most aspects of their lives.

    IOW, religious people who reject science and scientific thinking (like most of the fundies here) are not at all likely to even be aware of such biases in the first place, let alone take measures to combat them in themselves.

    quote:
    But that doesn't mean that everyone lives in a constant state of delusion either.

    Most people definitely do, though.

    Certainly, the millions of people who believe in Astrology, or dowsing, or that Saddam Hussein was involved in the WTC attacks, or that Aliens abduct people are deluded.

    Everyone has false memories of things that never happened, or have no memory of things that did, because our brains make mistakes.

    quote:
    We're all subject to personal biases whether we like it or not.

    Absolutely, and I strongly suspect that those who embrace magical thinking are far less likely to be aware of such bias, let alone be able to counterract it in themselves.

    It really does take a lot of education in logic and even more dicipline to not come to sloppy, biased conclusions about almost anything.

    quote:
    The objective, I suppose, is objectivity itself.

    Well, the objective is to always maintain doubt, do not allow yourself to believe without evidence.

    To quote Feynman:

    The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool.

    Edited by nator, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 201 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-13-2007 7:34 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

      
    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 210 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 210 of 307 (421714)
    09-14-2007 12:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 192 by Cold Foreign Object
    09-13-2007 2:58 PM


    Re: I know about Faith
    Phat is an evolutionist/Darwinist (said words are synonyms) who thinks he is a Christian.

    with all due respect, who the hell are you to tell phat he's not a christian?

    You do not understand NTS.

    NTS is an attempt to objectify subjectivity.

    "no true scotsman" is when someone makes a statement, as your above, that excludes people as "not counting" as a "real" whatever. the idea is that if every person in scotland excludes every other group, then by collective agreement, there is no true scotsman. just infidels.

    perhaps you should look up what the fallacy is.

    No, that is not the definition of a Fundamentalist. A Fundamentalist is many things, theologically (the main issue) Fundamentalists accept the message of the book of James to be equal and congruent with Pauline epistles. This means they are legalists and have rejected the gospel (= way of faith alone, Paul's message).

    ray, i was a fundamentalist. i know what fundamentalism is. you are obscuring the main idea by focusing on some irrelevent minutae -- "fundamentalist" comes from the idea that someone believes in the "fundamentals" and adheres to them.

    James wrote to contradict Paul.

    i thought the bible does not contradict?

    It's in Paul's epistles and not James: God will accept faith, in place of works, to relate to Him through Christ - period.

    yes ray, that's "fundamentalism" means.


    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-13-2007 2:58 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 219 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-14-2007 3:15 PM arachnophilia has responded

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