Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 59 of 307 (421097)
09-11-2007 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by pbee
09-10-2007 11:11 PM


Re: I know about Faith
pbee writes:
Since the knowledge of God is to attain eternal life, what do atheists offer?
Why don't you upgrade your eternal life policy with 72 brown-eyed virgins? If you you are going to fool yourself don't go half way.
But you bring up the point the many who seek "knowledge of God" do so from a purely self-centric perspective. I am sure God is impressed.
For those folks who proclaim that they "love the Lord" ask them if they found out that there is really in no eternal paradise awaiting for them would they still "love the Lord"? Probably not which demonstrates what they really love...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by pbee, posted 09-10-2007 11:11 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:40 AM iceage has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 78 of 307 (421122)
09-11-2007 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by pbee
09-11-2007 2:18 AM


Re: I know about Faith
pbee writes:
To my knowledge the scriptures contain a host of measurable facts and claims. The biggest being God's claim to Creation. I think, those who overlook these facts are shooting themselves in the foot where truth and sincerity is concerned.
The scripture do contain a host of facts and claims. Those that pertain to the mechanisms of the universe are unremarkable similar to those of other surrounding cultures and really didn't advance the understanding base much - errr well not at all.
In fact not one single paradigm shift in human understanding of the physical world has ever come from a revealed or literal reading of the scriptures! This is truly a remarkable fact when one considers it.
After a discovery is made there those who will go back and find some correlation in the scriptures to some new understanding but it is always a posteriori and are always contrived.
Here is my abbreviated score card for the two paths that Crash was talking about...
Scriptural Revealed Truth      Science/Observation/Hypothesis
-----------------------------------------------------------
        --                    1. Spherical Earth
                              2. Heleocentric Solar system
                              3. Newtonian Mechanics
                              4. Atomic Structure of Matter
                              5. Sub-Atomic Particles
                              6. Particle/Wave Duality
                              7. Nuclear Powered Sun
                              8. Maxwell relations
                              9. Relativity
                             10. Old Earth
                             11. Galaxy content of the universe
                             12. Relativity
                             13. Mendelian Genetics
                             14. DNA
                             ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 2:18 AM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by pbee, posted 09-11-2007 12:28 PM iceage has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 126 of 307 (421320)
09-12-2007 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object
09-11-2007 11:53 PM


ewwww whats the smell....
Ray writes:
In other words you are a loser who could not make it with God
Strange choice of words. I have this vision of Ray and God on the couch and ... oh well no don't go there.
Ray writes:
and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him
Since this never happened to you Crashfrog you never embarked on a real path of faith. As soon as God did not respond according to your time table you went your own way and here you are a convinced Atheist, that is, a loser who could not make it with God.
And when is God's love going to manifest itself in you and from you out towards others? Judging other peoples experiences and calling them a loser is not a product of love, but just ole twisted, hateful, spiteful, vulgar Ray.... It is well demonstrated here and elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-11-2007 11:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 128 of 307 (421323)
09-12-2007 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
09-12-2007 1:15 AM


Re: I know about Faith
arach writes:
you make it [faith] sound like a bad habit.
Crashfrom writes:
It is, but it's one you can break with practice.
I can relate to Arach.
As a result of some experiences (which I don't want to go into) in my formative years I find I still have some nagging sense of, or tendency to rely on "faith" or believing in a patriarchal anthropomorphic personal God. Silly as I know it is from all the research, reasoning and ceiling gazing that I have done. Maybe it is PTSD or imprinting I am not sure.
Or maybe it is because I am a skeptic's skeptic and I find myself being skeptical of being skeptical. I even find myself needing faith in not having faith. I have read and gained from all the "testimonies" here and have found they have increased this sort of faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 09-12-2007 1:15 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Taz, posted 09-12-2007 12:53 PM iceage has not replied
 Message 139 by arachnophilia, posted 09-12-2007 2:13 PM iceage has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 208 of 307 (421708)
09-13-2007 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object
09-13-2007 9:56 PM


Invulnerable illogic logic
Ray writes:
Is main "argument" is a perfect self-contradicting circle: "I was a real believer, knew God, but it was really a delusion, therefore the same is true with you."
How is that self-contradicting? I have read of people with similar testimonies concerning a falling away from Islam, Mormanism, Hinduism, etc. They were a real believers at one time but later realized they were living in self-delusion and walked away. There is nothing self-contradicting about this experience, sometimes it is just growing up and becoming wiser.
Ray writes:
Whoever the evolutionists condemn are the most right, this is invulnerable logic.
Think about this a little. If this is "invulnerable logic" then all of superstition is right-on in your opinion.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-13-2007 9:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 252 of 307 (422021)
09-15-2007 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Cold Foreign Object
09-15-2007 1:54 PM


Re: Trapped By His Own Argument
Ray the context of your quoted scripture of 2 Thessalonians 2 is not the context that you are trying to use against Crashfrog. Try to be honest. His admitted de-conversion and your alleged delusion did not involve signs or wonders.
The context of the 2 Thessalonians 2 is concerned with those admiring and swayed by signs and wonders. The context is that the Antichrist will come with power, with signs and with lying wonders. Somehow I suspect this Crashfrog fellow would not be easily swayed by signs and wonders.
Actually the context of the quoted scripture could be used against the current pentecostal fads and even some moderate Christians that I know. These people are primed for the deception because they want to desperately believe and are ready for a lie. They have abandoned healthy skepticism in exchange of seductive promises. The funny part is that they actively lie and deceive each other that only results in building faith and increasing the strength of their shared delusion.
I recently had an encounter of this in my local area with a latter day rain pentecostal church that claims to be receiving Gemstones from Heaven. Evidently "God will send them a strong delusion".
BTW, I bumped the post of yours in the parasite thread. If you don't mind could you expound further on your references to Satanic creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-15-2007 1:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-15-2007 5:00 PM iceage has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 255 of 307 (422060)
09-15-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Cold Foreign Object
09-15-2007 5:00 PM


Bible study
Ray writes:
it is an axiomatic truth that Atheists (like yourself) cannot be honest or objective about the Source which falsifies their worldview.
Since you cannot be objective or honest about the "Source" that must mean you are an atheists - by your own logic - axiomatically speaking.
Let's have a look at what you say next....
Ray writes:
You are just plain wrong about the context (which supports the axiom argued above). The context of verses 11 and 12 is verse 10
Verse 10 even starts with a conjunction to remove doubt that it connects with verse 9.
2 thessalonian 2 writes:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
I thought maybe my reading of the text was inaccurate so I looked around for other opinions. Here's one....
The Rapture and 2 Thessalonians 2
MiddleTownBibleChurch writes:
The deceivableness and delusion mentioned in verses 10-11 is linked to verse 9 (note especially the phrase "lying wonders"). I understand this passage to be saying that these people will be deceived by means of the Satanic miracles which will be taking place during the tribulation in connection with the man of sin. Again this is a post-rapture context, not a pre-rapture context.
My emphasis...
The verse does *not* apply in the manner you really really want to apply it.
As in the parasite thread when the text does not support your world view you innovate.
Edited by iceage, : Attribution

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-15-2007 5:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 6:15 PM iceage has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 271 of 307 (422297)
09-16-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Cold Foreign Object
09-16-2007 6:15 PM


Re: Bible study
It is really sad when the godless atheists instruct fundamentalist on the very object of their idolatry!
I did not evade your reply but responded directly.
Ray writes:
The context of verses 11 and 12 is verse 10 and the same plainly speaks of persons who have rejected Christ's love and salvation (content after semi colon: "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.").
Verse 9 and 10 are connected with a conjunction connecting the thoughts - you can not disassociate them because of your bias and propensity to condemn others.
Even the phrase you want to desperately isolate has another conjunction connecting it with the prior thought. Check out the grammatical uses of conjunctions and semi-colons before you reply.
Ray writes:
Your MiddleTown Bible Church quote evades what the tenth verse actually says and it is probably a quote mine on your part.
If it were a quote mine why not just prove it! The link was provided.
Why would you just make an empty false accusation instead of proving your assertion - this is further dishonesty. BTW, I also just checked Matthew Henry's commentary and it includes verse 5 thru 12 as a unit - those godless heathens.
What is even more amazing that you make the empty accusation of quote mining while you are busy quote mining the very bible yourself by not including the all important full context.
Look by using your technique I can make the Bible say:
Bible writes:
There is no God
When in fact it does not..
Psalm 14:1 writes:
A fool says in his heart, There is no God.
As you will note context is important. You cannot apply this verse to Crashfrog but it may apply to yourself if you think about a while.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 6:15 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-18-2007 3:14 PM iceage has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 276 of 307 (422682)
09-17-2007 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Cold Foreign Object
09-17-2007 9:51 PM


Re: Atheist Evangelism
Ray writes:
the Bible says those who have (past tense) rejected Christ are suffering a delusion from God for scorning His Son.
You are steadfast in your blatant and arrogant attempt at quote mining the bible for your blind obsession to condemn others. This may very well be entered as evidence of your delusion as you refuse not only accept the plain reading of your referenced scriptures but also every commentary I have ever read on the subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-17-2007 9:51 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-18-2007 3:23 PM iceage has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 279 of 307 (422875)
09-18-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Cold Foreign Object
09-18-2007 3:14 PM


Re: Bible study
The clear context of your quoted scripture is about Satan using his supernatural powers to deceive thru the use of signs and lying wonders. Let the actual text talk for itself.
2 thessalonians 2 writes:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
You have to read scriptures holistically and in context. You are isolating text to satisfy some egotistical need to condemn or belittle others. You say
Ray writes:
Here we have a supposition that said conjunction was denied or disputed. Since this is false said supposition is a deliberate misrepresentation.
But you are denying. You are *overtly* denying and ignoring the conjunctions because the conjunctions connect the previous thoughts which gives the whole picture of the context.
Look there is even a comma between 9 and 10. I can only imagine if you were a scribe you would remove verse 9.
It is painfully obvious what you are doing and I wonder if this is evidence your own delusion as you cannot see it.
Let's review your own words.
Ray writes:
The issue is the context of verses 11 and 12, which is the last phrases of verse 10....
The context of verses 11 and 12 is verse 10 and the same plainly speaks of persons who have rejected Christ's love and salvation (content after semi colon: "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.").
You are denying the obvious connection of verse 9 (thru the use of a conjunction and comma) the gives the complete context which is not what you want.
iceage writes:
If it were a quote mine why not just prove it! The link was provided.
Ray writes:
You fail to see that the "MiddleTown Bible Church" is not a source or a scholar
Here is where you are being dishonest. You accused that I quote mined. I did not. But since you cannot backup that accusation now you discount the source.
Ray writes:
you also fail to see that your use of "this source" is an isolated pick and choose that conveniently supports your corruptive intent concerning 2 Thess. 2. Your use is a quote mine OR they are quote mining (doesn't matter) BECAUSE both of you or just you are evading what comes after the semi-colon before verse 11.
First I have not denied what comes after the semi-colon just realized that the verse is connected and meaning not want you want.
Second I am sure Middletown Baptist are godless atheist because they do not recognize your authority.
Third Matthew Henry, the godless heathen, agrees with the text and the context, he connects verses 5 - 12.
Matthew Henry writes:
Signs and wonders, visions and miracles, are pretended; but they are false signs to support false doctrines; and lying wonders, or only pretended miracles, to cheat the people; and the diabolical deceits with which the antichristian state has been supported, are notorious. The persons are described, who are his willing subjects. Their sin is this; They did not love the truth, and therefore did not believe it; and they were pleased with false notions.
Crashfrog never mentioned being swayed by Signs, wonders, visions, miracles, lying wonders, etc.
You are just plain wrong.
Ray writes:
You are a Atheist-evolutionist loon whose only intent is to evade and corrupt these textual facts because they explain your godless state too.
I would imagine that most people probably meet your threshold for being atheist-evolutionist loons (including the good folk at Middletown Baptist).
The very fact that you would associate evolution to a completely unrelated biblical interpretation is telling who is the loon.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-18-2007 3:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-19-2007 3:54 PM iceage has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 284 of 307 (423131)
09-19-2007 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Cold Foreign Object
09-19-2007 3:54 PM


Holistically Speaking
Iceage writes:
You have to read scriptures holistically and in context. You are isolating text to satisfy some egotistical need to condemn or belittle others.
Ray writes:
The word is "wholistically" and not "holistically," Iceage. Your comment betrays exactly what you are guilty of in addition to corruption since you are an Atheist and the subject is the Bible.
"Holistically" is in my dictionary - wholistically is not.
Holistic
quote:
Emphasizing the importance of the whole and the interdependence of its parts.
That is exactly the word that illustrates the issue.
I am urging you to understand the importance of the whole and that you cannot yank some sentence fragment and bang someone over the head with it.
Your mis-definition aside (which is not a big deal as I am guilt of such all the time) I am curious why you would aggressively attack with this:
Ray writes:
Your comment betrays exactly what you are guilty of in addition to corruption since you are an Atheist and the subject is the Bible.
All I am saying context is important! Other commentators agree. Why all the bluster about guilty, corruption, atheist, etc. just because you thought a word was misused. Get a grip fella.
Further your dispute is not with me but the KJV translators. They are the ones who studied the text and choose the connecting phasing and semi-colons. I am just applying the rules of English grammar and comprehension.
You may not deny the existence of conjunctions but you certainly are discounting them. You are proof-texting the Bible.
Crashfrog's experience does not apply as described by the Thessalonian passages when read in context.
You are claiming that your own self-proclaimed status as a Christian allow you to unassailably to misinterpret the Bible to your own liking and override anyone else's including other Christian commentators.
That is extreme self-righteous arrogance.
Ray writes:
The point is that these verses tells us the real reason why you do not have a spiritual IQ. God has rejected you for scorning His Son, this explains "ex-Christians" who are now Atheists.
Wow! You are a work.... Are you really a Christian or perhaps one of the deluded souls talked about in Thessalonian's.
Galations talks about the fruit of the spirits (love, joy, peace, gentleness, meekness, temperance, etc.) I see no outwards signs or manifestations of any of these characteristics in your various attacks, judgments and condemnations.
And just who in the hell gives you the understanding or knowledge that God has rejected anyone!!!!!!
The only thing explained by this is that you are not a Christian.
Edited by iceage, : cleaned up

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-19-2007 3:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by CTD, posted 10-01-2007 6:54 AM iceage has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 287 of 307 (425275)
10-01-2007 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by CTD
10-01-2007 6:54 AM


Re: Holistically Speaking
iceage writes:
And just who in the hell gives you the understanding or knowledge that God has rejected anyone!!!!!!
The only thing explained by this is that you are not a Christian.
CTD writes:
1.) CFO has no right to "condemn" anyone - that right is reserved for iceage (In context, not a Christian = condemned)
Yes you right. I should not have tacked on the last little bit about CFO standing as a Christian. I take it back.
However I was reacting a little out of anger for this audacious statement.....
CFO writes:
God has rejected you for scorning His Son, this explains "ex-Christians" who are now Atheists.
That ought to rankle you a bit.
Here CFO is speaking *for* God which is quite bit different then attempting to decide who is or isn't a Christian by some standard guideline.
Can you see the arrogance and hubris is such a statement!!!! CFO is proclaiming to know God thoughts and just who God has or hasn't rejected.
iceage writes:
Crashfrog never mentioned being swayed by Signs, wonders, visions, miracles, lying wonders, etc.
You are just plain wrong.
CTD writes:
1.) Such a person might well be expected to be unaware they'd been fooled.
2.) If they were aware, they just might not be in a big hurry to bring it up
But who is deluded? Let look for external signs of delusion. Delusion is the keeping of a false belief in spite of invalidating evidence.
Now consider there are those who believe myths are real like a child believing in Santa Clause. And those who hang onto bronze-age world views in spite of centuries of scientific progress and success that invalidate these views and myths. So just who is exhibiting external signs of delusion?
CTD writes:
3.) Is it a coincidence that iceage mentions 'Signs, wonders, visions, miracles, lying' wonders while omitting to mention 'false doctrines' (unless they're included in the "etc.")? I don't think so. When false doctrines enter the picture, his argument is obviously even weaker.
No not a coincidence! The passage in question that CFO is badly misinterprets does not mention "false doctrine" so why should I add it. Nevertheless there is no false or seductive doctrine involved so it does not apply.
CTD writes:
But there's no obvious reason God must confine the strong delusions to those days if some in other times manage to meet the qualifications.
You really believe that your loving god is going to send strong delusion to ensure a creature of his own creation a warm place in hell? That is just too damn incoherent.
Beware, these are common manipulations and threats that cultists use to keep those timid followers from questioning and thinking independently. It works for some.
CTD writes:
I recommend that readers bear in mind the common deceitful practices of evolutionists, and of the internet community overall. Take a good critical look at these stories before swallowing them, and do not be easily swindled. The "insider view" of Christianity they'd sell you may well be pure imagination.
We are all ears. This forum is a good place to demonstrate any "common deceitful practices" of the evolutionists. Expose their lies for all to see.
I have listened to both sides and without a doubt the Creationist camp if full of deceit and dishonesty. The deceitful practices of YEC are well documented here and elsewhere. YEC literature and talks are a great way to illustrate a range of established logical fallacies, usually within the first paragraph or two.
CTD writes:
Real Christians attempt to follow the Bible. They fail, and have shortcomings; but they try. They do not intentionally misinterpret or misrepresent the Bible.
But this exactly what CFO did here, you should be exhorting your fellow Christian instead of providing support. He intentionally misinterpreted the passage so he could scratch his itch and label Crash delusional (ala direct from God).
CTD writes:
Nothing has been opposed as fiercely as God's Truth. Nothing is even close. On that basis one expects it to be either totally wrong or totally right (otherwise those who oppose would have some higher priority).
First It's not God's truth. Other false beliefs are equally opposed when they intrude into the political sphere.
Second if opposition is some form of validation that must make slavery and child abuse pretty sacred stuff.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by CTD, posted 10-01-2007 6:54 AM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by CTD, posted 10-01-2007 10:03 PM iceage has not replied
 Message 290 by CTD, posted 10-02-2007 4:03 AM iceage has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 297 of 307 (425490)
10-02-2007 1:21 PM


Delusions
Since we are at the magic number I will summarize my thoughts.
It was suggested that Crash was purposefully deluded by a loving and just God. Delusion is the keeping of false beliefs in spite of invalidating evidence. Some supposed scriptural support was provided.
I see no signs of delusions in Crashfrog's posts. On the contrary the theist I see here are exhibiting outward and observable signs of delusions.
  • Beliefs in the reality and veracity of ancient myths of which there are copious amounts of invalidating and falsifying evidence.
  • Statements claiming to know the mind of God and just who is condemned and who is not.
  • unrelenting misinterpretation and invention of extrapolated meanings of religious passages and ignoring the usual rules of grammar and reading comprehension.

  • iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 302 of 307 (425580)
    10-02-2007 8:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 300 by CTD
    10-02-2007 6:54 PM


    Re: A few questions
    CTD writes:
    You're not interested in truth.
    That's disingenuous...
    CTD writes:
    The Bible doesn't say God is going to just up & "make some believe" He or His salvation aren't real.
    Sure does...
    Romans 9:21 writes:
    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    You then further twist....
    ctd writes:
    You maintain that He should practice psychological manipulation to such an extent that He gets a positive result in every single case. There's no free will in that. It's just an inefficient method of manufacturing zombies.
    Disingenuous again. That is not what LinearAg said. He said
    la writes:
    1. How is convincing someone of the value in serving God considered twisting their arm or making them robots?
    2. What aspect of God providing strong unambiguous evidence of His reality to the world negates our free will?
    Providing strong unambiguous evidence is not "psychological manipulation".
    The whole free-will argument for the justification of hell etc is rubbish. That is, the argument that God had to give us free-will so that our love genuine. One can still have free-will and still be designed to have a strong propensity to obey and understand God. My dog is genetically wired to obey his master and to be a loyal companion. Does that fact somehow negate or minimize the value of his love and loyalty? No.
    LinearAG writes:
    First, you have not shown that I have turned away from the love of truth. Interestingly, many seekers of truth don't come to the same conclusion about God that you do, despite their sincerity in the quest. I am one of those.
    CTD writes:
    Talk is cheap. You need to start behaving like a sincere seeker of truth.
    You replies are cheap and arrogant.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 300 by CTD, posted 10-02-2007 6:54 PM CTD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 303 by CTD, posted 10-02-2007 8:24 PM iceage has replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 304 of 307 (425589)
    10-02-2007 8:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 303 by CTD
    10-02-2007 8:24 PM


    Re: A few questions
    Oh... show me where he said "psychological manipulation".
    He further clarified
    LinearAg writes:
    1. How is convincing someone of the value in serving God considered twisting their arm or making them robots?
    2. What aspect of God providing strong unambiguous evidence of His reality to the world negates our free will?
    But you twisted by claiming "psychological manipulation". Cheap...
    You are being a wee bit condescending (if not arrogant) by assuming LinearAg's "love of the truth" is cheap compared to your own and he needs to start being sincere.
    LinearAg writes:
    First, you have not shown that I have turned away from the love of truth. Interestingly, many seekers of truth don't come to the same conclusion about God that you do, despite their sincerity in the quest. I am one of those.
    CTD writes:
    Talk is cheap. You need to start behaving like a sincere seeker of truth.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 303 by CTD, posted 10-02-2007 8:24 PM CTD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 305 by CTD, posted 10-03-2007 1:41 AM iceage has replied

    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024