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Author Topic:   Any comment on this? (The evil of television?)
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 16 of 82 (41985)
06-02-2003 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by zephyr
06-02-2003 4:43 PM


I think it's a terrible shame that they're depriving us of opportunities
If you're thinking what I think your thinking, then I'm thinking you haven't known too many nuns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by zephyr, posted 06-02-2003 4:43 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
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zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 17 of 82 (42014)
06-03-2003 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by crashfrog
06-02-2003 10:48 PM


...
Bring on the nuns!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 06-02-2003 10:48 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 82 (42150)
06-05-2003 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AstroMike
05-29-2003 9:30 PM


I agree about TV being immoral and evil.
I mean, you have people like John Hagee and Pat Robertson, among a bunch of other lesser wacko preachers, telling people to hate Islam and for men to control women and for God to srike down gay people.
Let's not even START to talk about Jim Bakker or Jerry Falwell.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-05-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 82 (42152)
06-05-2003 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by truthlover
05-31-2003 8:35 PM


So, what about Botticelli or Reubens or many other artists? Are nude paintings evil, too? What about the clear eroticism of the Song of Solomon in the Bible? Are your kids allowed to read that?
And what about Jars of Clay, or Mister Mister? Those are both rock bands that are christian. And what is so evil about rock music, anyway? It's less evil than a football game, or a Promise Keepers rally, if you ask me.
The human experience is wide ranging, to say the least, and art in all of it's forms seeks to express all of the different aspects to emotion and experience.
A lot of art, including music, is not the equivalent of a painting of a bowl of fruit. Art can be disturbing and scary and moving, but it is nothing to protect ourselves from out of fear of life.
Fear of art is fear of our humanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by truthlover, posted 05-31-2003 8:35 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 06-05-2003 11:57 AM nator has replied
 Message 21 by zephyr, posted 06-05-2003 4:35 PM nator has not replied
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 06-05-2003 8:40 PM nator has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 82 (42169)
06-05-2003 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by nator
06-05-2003 9:14 AM


It's less evil than a football game, or a Promise Keepers rally, if you ask me.
Actually, I went to one of those rallies a few years back, with my dad. I'm all up into gender equality and all, but it's been my experience that people who criticize PK haven't ever been to a rally.
Honestly, my impression was that it was like going to church for three days in a row. They didn't have anything to say about men beyond "take responsibility for your actions, don't blame others" and some tips on communicating with women, which every guy could use. I really didn't find it sexist, just boring.
At least in recent years, I'd say that open condemnations of PK as some kind of anti-women man-fest are just a little exaggerated. They're no more sexist than the churches they draw people from (Evangelical Lutherans, mostly, around here) - of course, that might be bad enough. But in three days of the rally, I think they talked about women like maybe twice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nator, posted 06-05-2003 9:14 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 06-16-2003 10:44 PM crashfrog has replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 21 of 82 (42181)
06-05-2003 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nator
06-05-2003 9:14 AM


quote:
What about the clear eroticism of the Song of Solomon in the Bible? Are your kids allowed to read that?
Supposedly (unsupported assertion of someone I knew long ago) the Hebrews used to make you wait till age 45 or so. But these days, kids are left alone with that dangerous material all the time. I didn't think much of it as a kid, but I just happened to read some to my girlfriend a few days before it was mentioned here... she found it very entertaining

This message is a reply to:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 22 of 82 (42187)
06-05-2003 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nator
06-05-2003 9:14 AM


quote:
Are nude paintings evil, too?
I'm not real prone to using the word evil, but I would neither look at a nude painting, nor let my children. I don't dodge the nude statues we run across in museums, or occasionally in other buildings. I don't even pay them much attention, nor tell my children not to look. However, I would not paint or sculpt a nude figure, nor would I own one.
quote:
What about the clear eroticism of the Song of Solomon in the Bible? Are your kids allowed to read that?
No. That was a real difficult question for me when I was a Christian. The apocryphal parts of Daniel and the apocryphal book Judith were difficult for me, too. However, since I don't believe anymore that the Bible is the center of the faith Jesus and the apostles taught, I just tell the kids they can't read that yet. Not that any of them, even the 13-year-old, have asked to read such a thing.
I guess I'd let my 13-year-old read Judith; not Song of Solomon.
quote:
And what about Jars of Clay, or Mister Mister?
Never heard of them.
quote:
Those are both rock bands that are christian.
Okay. I'm not Christian, at least in the sense of belonging to any modern churches that call themselves Christian, or considering myself related to them.
quote:
And what is so evil about rock music, anyway? It's less evil than a football game
Really? Why? I understand, although I definitely disagree, you saying that about Promise Keepers, but I can't think of any reasons for you to say that about football.
quote:
Fear of art is fear of our humanity.
I don't consider myself afraid of art. I consider some things that I guess you would call art not to be art. I'm not sure what to do about that. I don't approve of mixed nudity, nor mixed almost nudity, so I wouldn't paint or sculpt anything like that, and I wouldn't purposely go see such paintings or sculptures. I guess I don't believe that qualifies as fear of art.
I understand people might disagree with me, especially those who don't follow or believe in my God. I do not think, however, that my opinion is bizarre. If there is no God, and we have no history but that which goes through Homo erectus and the Australopithecines, then my opposition to nudity and arousing sexual desires is pretty foolish, I admit.
On the other hand, my opposition to Rock music is an opposition to a lifestyle, at least when it comes to "hard rock." I was a teenager. I went to rock concerts. That lifestyle is destructive. I'm glad I'm out of it. I'm glad the youth of our village avoid such a lifestyle. It has no appeal to them.
Rock is a wide term, I understand, although I'm no musician. When I say I'm opposed to the rock music lifestyle, I mean what I see at hard rock concerts. I don't know where the line is between rock and pop music, whatever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nator, posted 06-05-2003 9:14 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 06-05-2003 9:27 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 28 by nator, posted 06-16-2003 11:15 PM truthlover has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 23 of 82 (42192)
06-05-2003 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by truthlover
06-05-2003 8:40 PM


However, since I don't believe anymore that the Bible is the center of the faith Jesus and the apostles taught, I just tell the kids they can't read that yet.
Do you let them read the violent parts of the Old Testament?
If so, then why do you believe that it is acceptable for a child to learn about how lives are taken (violence, etc), but not how lives are made?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 06-05-2003 8:40 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by truthlover, posted 06-06-2003 3:34 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 24 of 82 (42203)
06-06-2003 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by NosyNed
05-31-2003 1:36 AM


quote:
Sounds innocent enough
You just don't have as good an imagination as I do.
HA! I sure stepped right into that one. And sure as heck, I CLEARLY remember my 'mixed swimming' experiences.
[This message has been edited by roxrkool, 06-06-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 25 of 82 (42249)
06-06-2003 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
06-05-2003 9:27 PM


quote:
Do you let them read the violent parts of the Old Testament? so, then why do you believe that it is acceptable for a child to learn about how lives are taken (violence, etc), but not how lives are made?
Yes to the first question, and I do let them know how lives are made. We have pets, and several of the youth in our village raise horses, so my kids all know that Shadow had a foal because Abby paid for stud service.
It hasn't come up with all my kids, since the youngest took her first steps about a week ago, but if it does, we let our kids know humans mate, too. (No storks in our family.)
That is not the same, however, as exposing them to nude photos or letting them watch humans mate. In fact, I have some problems with the 2nd grade sex education books that I saw while I was in Germany. That may be no more than my upbringing, but my upbringing says you don't expose kids to sex prematurely, but a certain amount of violence is okay.
I don't know that I can argue for or against my view of violence in stories, but I think limiting their exposure to nudity and preventing their watching sex is a real good idea. In fact, I greatly limit their exposure to watching violence, too. Talking about it is a different thing. What happened is what happened.
I'm rambling a bit, trying to sort thoughts. Sorry this is so long.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 26 of 82 (43086)
06-16-2003 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
06-05-2003 11:57 AM


Page not found – National Organization for Women
quote:
Tony Evans, one of the most dynamic Promise Keepers speakers, wrote in his contribution to the official Promise Keepers treatise, "Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper," under the heading "Reclaiming Your Manhood": ". . . sit down with your wife and say something like this, `Honey, I've made a terrible mistake. I've given you my role. I gave up leading this family, and I forced you to take my place. Now I must reclaim that role.' . . . I'm not suggesting you ask for your role back, I'm urging you to take it back. . . .there can be no compromise here. If you're going to lead, you must lead. . . .Treat the lady gently and lovingly. But lead!"
Elsewhere Evans has written, "Over the last thirty years, this role reversal has given rise to a feminist movement specifically designed to assert the role of women. Now a lot of women don't like to hear me say this, but I believe that feminists of the more aggressive persuasion are frustrated women unable to find the proper male leadership."
This does not fill me with warm fuzzy feelings for their agenda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 06-05-2003 11:57 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 82 (43087)
06-16-2003 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nator
06-16-2003 10:44 PM


This does not fill me with warm fuzzy feelings for their agenda.
Well, I won't deny that the PK leadership aren't the most pro-woman group out there - but I just don't think they're any more anti-feminist than most of the churches I'm familiar with.
Not that that's a good thing, of course. I just don't see that the Promise Keepers are any particular thing to get upset about. They're just indicative of a Christian culture that feels that a man's proper place is as a leader.
Tony Evans's comments are, however, totally outrageous. What a dork.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 06-16-2003 10:44 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 28 of 82 (43088)
06-16-2003 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by truthlover
06-05-2003 8:40 PM


quote:
I'm not real prone to using the word evil, but I would neither look at a nude painting, nor let my children. I don't dodge the nude statues we run across in museums, or occasionally in other buildings. I don't even pay them much attention, nor tell my children not to look. However, I would not paint or sculpt a nude figure, nor would I own one.
Well, I think that is sad. What is wrong with nudity is that our culture is so obsessed with sex that we cannot think of nude bodies in any other way. I would contend that conservative Christian culture is the most sex-obsessed group of all.
OTOH...
The human body isbeautiful, and we are very sexual creatures. We have evolved in a way that uses sex as a bonding act, so it is as much a part of us as breathing and eating.
To cast this natural part of our very being in some kind of bad or shameful light, or something to be avoided rather than celebrated and cherished is simply tragic, and in fact, I think it inflates sex into this huge "thing" that it really isn't.
quote:
quote:What about the clear eroticism of the Song of Solomon in the Bible? Are your kids allowed to read that?
No. That was a real difficult question for me when I was a Christian. The apocryphal parts of Daniel and the apocryphal book Judith were difficult for me, too. However, since I don't believe anymore that the Bible is the center of the faith Jesus and the apostles taught, I just tell the kids they can't read that yet. Not that any of them, even the 13-year-old, have asked to read such a thing.
I guess I'd let my 13-year-old read Judith; not Song of Solomon.
Don't they have their own Bibles?
Anyway, at least you are consistent.
quote:
quote:And what is so evil about rock music, anyway? It's less evil than a football game
Really? Why? I understand, although I definitely disagree, you saying that about Promise Keepers, but I can't think of any reasons for you to say that about football.
That comment about football was a little bit of a joke, sorry.
However, I will say that most individual people and players at a football game are fine, good people, but there are a few fans and players who are immoral or violence-worshipping people.
The same can be said of most rock music fans and bands.
quote:
quote:Fear of art is fear of our humanity.
I don't consider myself afraid of art. I consider some things that I guess you would call art not to be art. I'm not sure what to do about that. I don't approve of mixed nudity, nor mixed almost nudity, so I wouldn't paint or sculpt anything like that, and I wouldn't purposely go see such paintings or sculptures. I guess I don't believe that qualifies as fear of art.
So, I guess all of those paintings and engravings of Adam and Eve, some of which are very famous, you wouldn't consider art?
I mean, do you ALWAYS think sexual thoughts when you see images of nude people? If you do, then I think that is a bit obsessive. But even if you did think of sex, what is wrong with that?
I am not talking about crass sexual images here, mind you. I am talking about art which has meaning and beauty, or makes a statement about the human condition.
quote:
I understand people might disagree with me, especially those who don't follow or believe in my God. I do not think, however, that my opinion is bizarre. If there is no God, and we have no history but that which goes through Homo erectus and the Australopithecines, then my opposition to nudity and arousing sexual desires is pretty foolish, I admit.
It could also be true that God made us to be sexual creatures and doesn't want us to suppress the natural expression of our natures.
Hence, the Song of Solomon in the Bible.
quote:
On the other hand, my opposition to Rock music is an opposition to a lifestyle, at least when it comes to "hard rock." I was a teenager. I went to rock concerts. That lifestyle is destructive. I'm glad I'm out of it. I'm glad the youth of our village avoid such a lifestyle. It has no appeal to them.
Rock is a wide term, I understand, although I'm no musician. When I say I'm opposed to the rock music lifestyle, I mean what I see at hard rock concerts. I don't know where the line is between rock and pop music, whatever.
Oh, for goodness sake, you make it sound like going to a rock concert every once in a while means you will likely become a drug addict or start sleeping around.
I was a teenager. I went to rock concerts. I was never in any kind of "destructive" lifestyle. Any "destructiveness" in my lifestyle came from my parents, both of whom smoked a lot and drank a lot. I don't smoke, have never done any illegal drugs and enjoy a glass of wine every once in a while.
Rock music doesn't make someone make self-destructive choices, any more than looking at nude paintings does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 06-05-2003 8:40 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by truthlover, posted 06-21-2003 11:58 PM nator has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3776 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 29 of 82 (43100)
06-17-2003 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
05-30-2003 5:04 PM


"Sodomite steam baths"? I wish I could come up with some witty remark because it just sounds so...commercial. Like everything is cleaner with..."Anthracite." How about "Steam clean your rugs with...The Sodomizer 2000." oh well...
I didn't think there were any Sodomite steam baths left in the world. Wasn't God responsible for wiping out all those "Sodomite" steam baths?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 05-30-2003 5:04 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 30 of 82 (43514)
06-20-2003 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by DBlevins
06-17-2003 4:19 AM


quote:
"Sodomite steam baths"? I wish I could come up with some witty remark because it just sounds so...commercial. Like everything is cleaner with..."Anthracite." How about "Steam clean your rugs with...The Sodomizer 2000." oh well...
I didn't think there were any Sodomite steam baths left in the world. Wasn't God responsible for wiping out all those "Sodomite" steam baths?
ROTFLMAO!!!
Oh, I think you could probably find a sodomite steam bath in the Village, or maybe at the San Francisco YMCA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by DBlevins, posted 06-17-2003 4:19 AM DBlevins has not replied

  
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