Does the Christian God Play with Free Will?

It's not? You can manage to wrap your head around the implications of quantum theory?Tell me more?

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It's not?

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Kind-of a joke that was.

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You can manage to wrap your head around the implications of quantum theory?

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Yeah. ------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Ok, thanks.Sometimes I read a very well written, clear article and think I've got something. Then I try to explain it to someone else.

Please forgive the brief interlude:As a podiatrist in nursing homes I've seen a lot of really spooky toenails (about a half-million) and some really spooky persons attached to them.Armed with a nail-nipper and a Dremel for toenail grinding, I enter a cheerful Alzheimer's unit in a VA hospital to do what I do."Mr. Smith, SIR! ... Would you like your nails trimmed SIR?" Mr. Smith is becoming aggitated (as it were) and shreaks out: "Damn you, I just trimmed them last night". He takes charge and commands with the utmost power of his FREE WILL: "Go to H?#!ll"I manage to get a shoe off while distracting him about the weather or something. His rage boils up into violence; I request 2 nurses to sit on the patient if I am to continue. I somehow get the other shoe off that is soaked in urine.I'm staring in horror at the toenails from hell; thick bird-clawing ram-horned fungal infected toenails that haven't been cut for years ... and filthy toe-jam that would make horse-piss palatable. Mr. Smith begins rather coyly to giggle (like Jim Carey) as he subtly transforms into the HULK. I request 2 nurses to help.Suddenly the aged hulk thrashes and shreaks in uncanny power as I peacefully sit on the floor before him, attempting to debride, shatter, chip, break-off, or peradventure put a dent in his right great toenail that is harder than rock.It becomes clear now that I must take the foot by force while 2 nurses ride the bull and fungal toenail shrapnel fires everywhere by my nail-clipping hand. I opt for my Dremel grinder at some point and the hulk renews his great powers. He desperately kicks, bites, spits, etc. in a noble expression of FREE-WILL?!Funny thing, I can't help but love the wretch and bless him after the battle. I become ENABLED to think pure and lovely thoughts as do the nurses. I conclude that: God seems to have played with our free will(s) in a benevolent manner.
-------------------------------Our Mosaic-like laws punish with presumption of "Free-Will" and various degrees of deliberation therein.Even the stubborn agnostic (AKA, atheist in 'Free-Will' denial) approves punishment for a man's sins.There are now more lawyers to indulgently judge us filthy-scum sinners than ever before. My malpractice insurance has skyrocketed, thus. Now they strain the knat and swallow the camel via new privacy legislation, etc. Otherwise, our free-will might capitalize against an unsuspecting public.As Romans (KJV ch 7) states: For in my (that is in my flesh) their dwelleth no good thing, for to will is in me, but how to perform that which is good I know not.I dogmatically speculate/conclude that:1) Every man's free-will is completely demented damned cursed and tormented, as per the Jim Carey flick, as per the book of Romans in the Bible, as our legal system judges, etc.2) Albeit, the hypocrite/actor, Jim Carey, a frolic-driven divorced-remarried want-to-be per se, does seem to pull off a great measure of Sunday school forthrightness: e.g., DETERMINISTIC GRACE by God favoring many persons, especially those who stagger deeply in prayer toward a Redeeming God.3) God-Almighty is behind it all, despite a devil who would prompt men to FREELY destroy themselves.4) When God hardened Pharoah, God did it in a permissive fashion. In other words God allowed Pharoah's free will to run its demonic course.5) God's Redemptive events restrain many persons Free Will from finishing their course toward hell. Biblically, these Redemptive events are incarnated in man via "the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" ...making men FREE [from cursed FREE WILL under the Law of Moses]. (Romans 8...)6) There are numerous types of principles which may be construed as "Free Will" depending upon the interpreter.7) Perhaps, the ideal FREE-WILL that I could think of is God's incarnated suffering forgiveness for filthy hell-bent, hell-deserving, jesting liars and whoremongers like you and I. A redeeming incarnating forgiveness resurrects the free-will into the pure and melodious bowels of compassion and thankful love to God.Blessings and Peace to all,
Philip

LOL... if only I could live such great adventures!Now to business:

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Even the stubborn agnostic (AKA, atheist in 'Free-Will' denial) approves punishment for a man's sins.

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It is a mistake to equate the practical requirements of society with something metaphysical-- like sin. We exist inside a culture and we depend upon on it for a great many things necessary for our survival. Certain behaviors threaten the stability of culture, and hence threaten our survival, and so those behaviors are quelled.

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1) Every man's free-will is completely demented damned cursed and tormented, as per the Jim Carey flick, as per the book of Romans in the Bible, as our legal system judges, etc.

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While I do agree with the 'man's free will is completely demented' part, you might want to consider Who created that free will.I don't understand the point of # 2.# 3 is contradictory. God is not behind whatever is done 'freely.' If he were, it wouldn't have been done 'freely.'# 4 just plain ain't what the Good Book says.\# 5 God's redemption is the SHACKLING of free will?# 6 'k# 7 You're a whoremonger too!!!!???? Wow.... ummm... this wouldn't have anything to do with Alzheimer's unit would it?------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Perhaps, the ideal FREE-WILL that I could think of is God's incarnated suffering forgiveness for filthy hell-bent, hell-deserving, jesting liars and whoremongers like you and I. A redeeming incarnating forgiveness resurrects the free-will into the pure and melodious bowels of compassion and thankful love to God.

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Your negativity is sickening. I know you've been taught not to view it as such, but you choose to emphasize the worst in us, and attribute everything good to an external cause without a decent reason to do so. You mask your vile perspective in glowing terminology about grace and love, but the fact remains that you advocate a thinly veiled, seething contempt of humanity itself. And Christians call atheists hateful?[This message has been edited by zephyr, 06-02-2003]

Philip writes:

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When God hardened Pharoah, God did it in a permissive fashion. In other words God allowed Pharoah's free will to run its demonic course.

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But that isn't what the Bible says. It states directly that god actively hardens Pharaoh's heart. Exodus doesn't say that god will keep out of Pharaoh's heart, it doesn't say that god will not interfere but rather let Pharaoh be stubborn in refusing to allow the Israelites to go.Instead, it directly states that god will deliberately and with malice aforethought harden Pharaoh's heart and will do it over and over and over again, despite the presentation of miracles.This statement of yours is the only one that even comes closest to answering my question. You seem to be saying that no, god does not play with a person's free will, but you justify it by contradicting the Bible.That's fine, but I just want to be clear: You are contradicting the Bible in your claim.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I'm a little lost here ... are you saying that we
do or do not have free will?Could you perhaps rephrase your reasoning to make
it clear?

He didn't and doesn't.Many times God is said to do the things he "permits" to be done. God gave Pharaoh the occassion to resist him and harden his "own" heart in the same way that the gospel saves or damns today; softens or hardens all who hear it. Any judgment or calamity which does not break the nature and subdue the life only hardens it. As the sun hardens the clay and softens the wax, so it is with truth. The result is not in the sun (or in God), but in the material. Ex.4:21 states the same as vs.7 and to me clearly indicates a prediction that God, and what he will do in Pharaohs midst, will cause Pharaoh to harden his own heart. Ex. 7:22 makes it quite clear that Pharaoh was in fact hardening his own heart as a result of the signs and wonders going on around him, just as God had predicted to Moses. What God and others were doing around him, and not to him, was what caused Pharaoh to harden his own heart.Respectfully, Paul.[This message has been edited by Paul, 06-05-2003]

I just had a look at the NIV (perhaps you could say what translation your are usingEx 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt,
and the KJV
ex 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.So how can you say that Pharaoh wasn't messed with? Only by carelessly taking later verse's out of context. Try reading a bit more carefully.

God is not the author of evil. There is no suggestion that he violated the freedom of Pharaoh’s will or that he manipulated Pharaoh in order to heap further vengeance on the Egyptian people. God is not opposed to the cooperation of pagan monarchs. Pharaoh could have cooperated with God just as Cyrus did in the Babylonian exile; God was still glorified when that king decided on his own to let Israel return from Babylon. If Pharaoh had acted as King Cyrus would later do, the results of the exodus would have been the same. It is Pharaoh, not God, who is to be blamed for the hardening of his own heart.This hardening of his own heart was manifested first of all in the fact, that he did not pay attention to the demand of Jehovah addressed to him through Moses, and would not let Israel go; and that not only at the commencement, so long as the Egyptian magicians imitated the signs performed by Moses and Aaron (though at the very first sign the rods of the magicians, when turned into serpents, were swallowed by Aaron’s, 7:12-13), but even when the magicians themselves acknowledged, This is the finger of God (8:19). It was also continued after the fourth and fifth plagues, when a distinction was made between the Egyptians and the Israelites, and the latter were exempted from the plagues,a fact of which the king took care to convince himself (Ex 9:7). And it was exhibited still further in his breaking his promise, that he would let Israel go if Moses and Aaron would obtain from Jehovah the removal of the plague, and in the fact, that even after he had been obliged to confess, I have sinned, Jehovah is the righteous one, I and my people are unrighteous (9:27), he sinned again, as soon as breathing-time was given him, and would not let the people go (9:34-35). Thus Pharaoh would not bend his self-will to the will of God, even after he had discerned the finger of God and the omnipotence of Jehovah in the plagues suspended over him and his nation; he would not withdraw his haughty refusal, notwithstanding the fact that he was obliged to acknowledge that it was sin against Jehovah. Looked at from this side, the hardening was a fruit of sin, a consequence of that self-will, high-mindedness, and pride which flow from sin, and a continuous and ever increasing abuse of that freedom of the will which is innate in all, and which involves the possibility of obstinate resistance to the word and chastisement of God even until death. As the freedom of the will has its fixed limits in the unconditional dependence of the creature upon the Creator, so the sinner may resist the will of God as long as they live.Rather than letting the work of God soften his heart during these plagues and concluding that Yahweh is the only true God, Pharaoh made this evidence the basis for hardening his heart. Meanwhile, the plagues must have had some impact on the general population of Egypt, for when the Israelites left Egypt, they were accompanied by many other people (Ex 12:38). As I pointed out above, even Pharaoh’s own magicians confessed, This is the finger [the work] of God (Ex 8:19), and they bowed out of the competition with the living God.Pharaoh made his own heart stubborn against God, Exodus 9:34; and God gave him up to judicial blindness, so that he rushed on stubbornly to his own destruction. From the whole of Pharaoh’s conduct we learn that he was bold, haughty, and cruel; and God chose to permit these dispositions to have their full sway in his heart without check or restraint from Divine influence. The whole procedure was graciously calculated to do endless good to both nations. The Israelites must be satisfied that they had the true God for their protector; and thus their faith was strengthened. The Egyptians must see that their gods could do nothing against the God of Israel; and thus their dependence on them was necessarily shaken.Also, there is nothing spoken throughout all of this of the eternal state of the Egyptian king; nor does anything in the whole of the subsequent account authorize us to believe that God hardened his heart against the influences of his own grace, that he might cause him to sin that his justice might consign him to hell. This would be such an act of flagrant injustice as we could scarcely attribute to the worst of any individual. Anyone who leads another into an offense that they may have a fairer pretense to punish that person for it, or brings that person into such circumstances that they cannot avoid committing a capital crime, and then punishes them for it, is surely the most execrable of mortals. What then should we make of the God of justice and mercy should we attribute to him a decree, the date of which is lost in eternity, by which he has determined to cut off from the possibility of salvation millions of millions of unborn souls, and leave them under a necessity of sinning, by actually hardening their hearts against the influences of his own grace and Spirit, that he may, on the pretext of justice, consign them to endless perdition? NOT !The Lord did not keep Pharaoh from responding to Moses. What He did was to use a self-hardened, condemned pagan to provide an opportunity to demonstrate His power and to bring His judgment on this wicked people. God’s decree of judgment on Pharaoh was that he would cause his own destruction.Here we see the unique dynamic interplay between human freewill and divine sovereignty. Pharaoh retained the freedom to harden his heart, refusing to do what God commanded. In all this, the just and righteous God did not do evil or injustice. Pharaoh remained fully responsible for his refusal to cooperate with God and therefore this refusal was used to achieve God's purposes.I use the NIV as well.Respectfully, Paul.[This message has been edited by Paul, 06-06-2003]

You went on at a some length. However, you did not touch on the verse Ex 7:3.I am not a biblical expert at all, far from it. However, I read the "I" in that verse to refer to God. Is that true?If the "I" is god he is the subject of the verb "hardened" isn't he?Please, show me the correct context that demonstrates that I am wrong. And, no, your words have no bearing on it at all. I need to see the biblical words that straighten this out for me.

Paul responds to me:

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Why would God play with Pharaoh's free will this way?

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He didn't and doesn't.

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But the story of Pharaoh directly contradicts you:Exodus 7:3: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.Notice that it doesn't say that Pharaoh is just a stubborn guy who won't listen. God directly tells Noah that the reason Pharaoh won't listen is because god is going to directly, concsiously, deliberately, and purposefully harden Pharaoh's heart.Isn't that playing with someone's free will?

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Many times God is said to do the things he "permits" to be done.

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But Exodus doesn't say that god "permitted" Pharaoh's heart to harden. It says that god deliberately hardened it.Exodus 7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.7:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.It isn't a question of god knowing that Pharaoh's going to be a jerk and simply letting it happen. Instead, god says that he is going to consciously, deliberately, and purposefully make Pharaoh a jerk.

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God gave Pharaoh the occassion to resist him and harden his "own" heart in the same way that the gospel saves or damns today;

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That isn't what the Bible says:"I will harden Pharaoh's heart."Not "I will let Pharaoh's heart be hardened" (of course, that implies god has the wherewithal to do something about it), not "But I know Pharaoh's heart will harden at your plea.""I will harden Pharaoh's heart."God tells Moses that he is going to deliberately, consciously, and purposefully force Pharaoh to behave in a certain manner.

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Ex.4:21 states the same as vs.7 and to me clearly indicates a prediction that God, and what he will do in Pharaohs midst, will cause Pharaoh to harden his own heart.

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No, that isn't what the passage says at all.4:21: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.The text is quite clear: God is going to deliberately, consciously, and purposefully force Pharaoh to behave in a certain manner. It isn't that Pharaoh has a choice in the matter."I will harden his heart."What part of "I will" is ambiguous?

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Exodus 7:22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

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Ex. 7:22 makes it quite clear that Pharaoh was in fact hardening his own heart as a result of the signs and wonders going on around him, just as God had predicted to Moses. What God and others were doing around him, and not to him, was what caused Pharaoh to harden his own heart.

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Incorrect. That is not what this passage says at all.Question: What was it "the LORD had said"?Be specific, now:"I will harden Pharaoh's heart."Notice that god does not say that the signs and miracles would hardening his heart or that Pharaoh would choose to disbelieve (of course, if you know what I'm going to do before I do it, how can I do anything else and thus is that not also indicative of no free will?)Instead, the Bible is quite explicit: God deliberately, consciously, and purposefully hardens Pharaoh's heart:"I will."Not "Pharaoh will" or "It will.""I will."And god does it not only once but a bunch of times:Exodus 9:12: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.Exodus 10:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:Exodus 10:20: But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.Exodus 11:10: And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.Exodus 14:4: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.Exodus 14:8: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.Exodus 14:17: And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.Considering that the text of the Bible directly states that god does it ("the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart"), how can anybody say that god didn't do it?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

NeoPagan says these things: ***Funny thing about the Old Testament--they never interviewed Pharoah or gave us a chance to hear his side of the story.***

Whether or not you intended that as a joking comment, things like that DO interest me greatly. Some of God's actions in the Bible seem like a token gesture made to give Himself satisfaction that He has "proved" Himself to the people and they support Him for it, like the "dossier" on Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction flaunted in our faces but with none of us allowed to see it.Take God casting out Adam & Eve from His Garden Of Eden. Adam, upon God questioning him, blames Eve. God turns to Eve and asks her why she did so terrible a thing. She immediately blames the serpent. Does God now hear the serpent's side of the story? NO! He merely ends all questioning right there by saying: "Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field;" and curses him.Sounds a bit too ... contrived for my liking. Like an inside job.------------------

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All the boys think she's a spy

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, 07-25-2003

NO....!!!what about when King saul took the ark out to battle with the Philistines, and lost? Why did they go into years of bondage and slavery to the Egyptians? And the Old testament is not written by one "sect" Not all the authors of the OT can even be identified to prove that.(just read the commentary before the books of the Bible) Also it depends on how you believe the OT was inspired. I think the most accepted version of this is the verbal plenary inspiration. You make it sound like God said somthing to them, and they wrote whatever they felt like. But what you need to do, is take into account what that book of the Bible was trying to accomplish, most books have a certian literary purpose. (tell me to slow down if im using too many big words) God did no harden the Israelits hearts, they are his chosen people, that he has set apart for himself, there is one way they are different. He showed them favor, along with many miracles and signs of wonders. Also, God could of let them die in the desert after they were disobedient and refused to enter the promise land and take it over becuase they were scared of the Giants in the land *yes I said Giants, look it up, the Nephilim and their descendants* I think you need to get a little more info on the OT before you call the Prophets a bunch of "terrorists" But I dont mind clearing up some things for you since you seem to bea little confused about some events in the BIble. Romans 8:28 explains a lot of things, no matter what happens, God does it to bring Glory to His name. I believe there was a big difference between his people, and the heathen nations around Israel. Although they struggled with sins, a judge or someone always rose up, and told the people of Israel to repent, and to go back to the LORD. It also talks about some of the sins of Canaanites...Homosexuality, star worship, incest, Beastiality, and it does no specifically say that Isreal indulged herself in all of these things (im not saying that some Israelites didnt do this, but that they did not partake in ALL of these as a nation)Actually, didn't moses talk to the Pharoah before the exodus? I could of swore that he had some form of interacting with him, somthing having to do with let my people go? also, reading from exodus 7, it appears as though God hardened Pharoah's heart, in order so that he could get the point across that he is GOd, through his plagues.I encourage you to read some of the NT, its cool to see thatyou have some knowledge of the OT, but I think its important to know what happened in the NT and then to go back and see how it all incorporates together.GOd bless