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Author Topic:   How can Biologists believe in the ToE?
nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 304 (418282)
08-27-2007 10:30 AM


bump for vashgun
c'mon, vash, tell me what you think.

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 08-29-2007 7:07 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 88 of 304 (418587)
08-29-2007 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by nator
08-27-2007 10:30 AM


Re: another bump for Vashgun
...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 08-27-2007 10:30 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by nator, posted 08-30-2007 8:42 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 89 of 304 (418766)
08-30-2007 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by nator
08-29-2007 7:07 AM


bump for Refpunk and Vashgun!!!!
c'mon, you two.
Time to deal with the implications of your position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 08-29-2007 7:07 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 08-30-2007 10:59 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 90 of 304 (418886)
08-30-2007 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by nator
08-30-2007 8:42 AM


Re: bump for Refpunk and Vashgun!!!! #3
Best way to shut me up is to reply, you two.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by nator, posted 08-30-2007 8:42 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by EighteenDelta, posted 08-31-2007 11:10 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 94 of 304 (419343)
09-02-2007 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Ihategod
09-02-2007 1:28 AM


Re: Of course I will entertain....
quote:
Yes, I will join your silly discussion.
"Silly" discussion?
What was that?
You wouldn't be treating others with condecention and contempt and trying to belittle their ideas, would you?
Do you like it when people treat your ideas like that? If you object to it, don't you think others do as well?
quote:
Why is it not OT for you to come into my thread and ask me to input my view on something I have no clue, no reference, and in fact no idea of.
It is perfectly acceptable to invite someone to an appropriate thread to answer an off-topic question or discuss an off-topic issue.
In fact, that is what we are supposed to do.
As for you having "no idea" of these things, you must, otherwise you wouldn't make the claims that you do.
You have repeatedly said that people who accept the Theory of Evolution are mistaken.
Such a claim has logical consequences. Like, if it is true, then you must believe that all Biologists, Paleontologists, and Geneticists are so dunderheaded and horrible at doing science that they don't realize how wrong they all are about everything they've discovered. Or, you must believe that there is a worldwide conspiracy among professional scientists to delude the public into thinking that the ToE is true when it is really false.
If you don't think either one of these scenarios is correct, then what is your explanation for why these hundreds of thousands of professional scientists have gone so incredibly wrong in their science over the last 150 years or more?
quote:
Biologists believe things they think are facts based on evidence. How can they? Easy, how can anyone believe in God? Experience, evidence, data, hypotheses, theory, assumptions.
So, are you saying that people who believe in God only have a tentative belief in God which could be rejected if new evidence comes to light?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Ihategod, posted 09-02-2007 1:28 AM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Ihategod, posted 09-03-2007 7:49 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 304 (419690)
09-04-2007 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Ihategod
09-03-2007 7:49 PM


Re: Of course I will entertain....
quote:
I assumed the topic was based on the title. I guess I was wrong. "How can biologists believe in the ToE? I think that is self explanatory.
Well, the topic is based on the opening post, not the title.
The opening post explained what was meant by the title (which was a paraphrase of someone who was incredulous that anyone would accept the ToE), and expanded upon the implications of that position for professional scientists.
Such a claim has logical consequences. Like, if it is true, then you must believe that all Biologists, Paleontologists, and Geneticists are so dunderheaded and horrible at doing science that they don't realize how wrong they all are about everything they've discovered. Or, you must believe that there is a worldwide conspiracy among professional scientists to delude the public into thinking that the ToE is true when it is really false.
quote:
More appeal to authority. classic.
This is not an appeal to authority. It is merely the logical implication of your position.
quote:
It only takes a few (or one) bad assumptions to corrupt a scientific study.
Sure, but you aren't talking about one study. You are talking about hundreds of thousands of scientists in various fields being completely wrong about the fundamental unifying theory for all of the Life Sciences.
It would be similar to saying that Physicists are wrong for accepting the Atomic Theory of Matter.
But anyway, who do you think discovers if a scientific study is wrong?
quote:
I'm not attacking their research, only some of their assumptions and conclusions.
Learning how to test hypotheses is the entirety of the Graduate and Post-Doctoral training of any scientist. This includes how to make valid inferences (conclusions) from the evidence.
If you are attacking their conclusions, you are attacking their ability as competent scientists.
Since all current work is based upon past work in science, don't you think anybody working in Evolutionary Genetics, say, might notice that the Genetics papers they are basing their own research on are fundamentally flawed? How is it that scientists currently working are able to make successful predictions based upon all of this faulty past research?
So, are you saying that people who believe in God only have a tentative belief in God which could be rejected if new evidence comes to light?
quote:
"only" is the key word. Limiting it to your thought, very unimpressive. Why do people incite me to write negatively, as if your purpose is to lure me into these little squabbles. Am I to let these just lie?
Unresponsive.
You claimed that people believe in God and science both based their belief upon;
quote:
Experience, evidence, data, hypotheses, theory, assumptions.
One of the basic tenets of the scientific method is that of "tentativity", which means that no theory is held to be an unchangeable eternal truth and can be challenged with appropriate evidence at any time. Indeed, overturning old dominant paradigms in the light of new and compelling evidence is how careers are made in science. Correcting errors in work made by past researchers and refining the knowledge those in the past provided us in the present to base our work upon is how all progress is made in science.
This is how science operates. New findings that contradict old ones are not rejected outright just because they contradict; they are tested and tested some more to see if they hold up. If they do, then the old theories are modified or rejected in favor of the new.
Is this the way people wo believe in God think about their faith?
With constant doubt and willingness to set it aside when something better comes along?
If you don't think either one of these scenarios is correct, then what is your explanation for why these hundreds of thousands of professional scientists have gone so incredibly wrong in their science over the last 150 years or more?
quote:
Your question seems to circulate around the idea that all scientists research the same sciences.
No, not at all.
However, the ToE is supported by many diciplines other than just Biology; the findings of Geology, Physics and Genetics are all consistent with, and in fact strengthen, the findings of Biology.
quote:
If a paleontologist suggests through research that birds and dinosaurs have common ancestry then the biologist will study how this could be possible. Not, as I understand it in most cases, to prove something right but more to line up with a certain theory for ill or good.
Any scientist will note in a paper if their finding contradicts or coincides with the rest of the body of evidence in their field.
quote:
Why do I think these people are wrong?
The list you provided doesn't really answer the question of the OP, though.
Do you really believe that hundreds of thousands of scientists over 150 years have been so very bad at doing science that they haven't noticed what is so incredibly obvious to a few religious non-scientists; that the fundamental theoretical underpinnings of all of the Life Sciences is completely false?
That if they would just read those Creationist websites they would realize that everything that any Life Scientist has concluded from their research in the last 100 or more years is completely misguided?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Ihategod, posted 09-03-2007 7:49 PM Ihategod has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 121 of 304 (419968)
09-05-2007 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Ihategod
09-05-2007 4:52 PM


Please don't lose sight of the OP
Vashgun, I asked you in my last post:
Do you really believe that hundreds of thousands of scientists over 150 years have been so very bad at doing science that they haven't noticed what is so incredibly obvious to a few religious non-scientists; that the fundamental theoretical underpinnings of all of the Life Sciences is completely false?
That if they would just read those Creationist websites they would realize that everything that any Life Scientist has concluded from their research in the last 100 or more years is completely misguided?
Dr. A has also asked you the same question several times.
What say you?
How can so many scientists be so completely wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Ihategod, posted 09-05-2007 4:52 PM Ihategod has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 124 of 304 (420096)
09-06-2007 7:32 AM


don't let Vashgun get us off topic
Please, everyone, you are being sucked in to Vashgun's avoidance of the OP by arguing evidence with him.
The topic is not geological strata, nor living dinosaurs, as much fun as it is to discuss these things with a scoffer.
The topic is, "How can Biologists believe in the ToE?"
Specifically, from the OP, the issue is:
Do you really think that the hundreds of thousands of scientists who have been advancing our understanding Biology over the last 150 years at the most astonishing pace have all just been deluded? Since several of the main occupations of scientists are critically examining theory and trying to falsify hypotheses, are you also accusing all of those Biologists of being so poor at doing science that they have, to a person, missed the fact that the overarching, foundational theory that underpins all Biology is completely false?
Vashgun is avoiding answering this question and you all are helping him avoid it.
If you are going to get into specifics of eviidence, at least frame it in terms of the OP.

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 9:31 AM nator has replied
 Message 127 by Taz, posted 09-06-2007 11:46 AM nator has not replied
 Message 128 by Ihategod, posted 09-06-2007 1:24 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 126 of 304 (420112)
09-06-2007 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
09-06-2007 9:31 AM


Re: don't let Vashgun get us off topic
Sure, they could all be deluded.
But the question is really, is it probable?
And you answered that already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 09-06-2007 9:31 AM jar has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 136 of 304 (420273)
09-07-2007 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Q
09-06-2007 7:25 PM


quote:
Creation Science is looked down on even when the science is good,
Show me the "good" Creation science.
I've certainly never seen any.
Creationists almost never do science, actually. They spend much of their time writing non-peer reviewed popular press books full of untruths and distortions of real scientists' work. The rest of their time they spend manouvering in local school politics to try to sneak their religious views into science classes.
quote:
just cause the word creation, much like how creationists must feel about going through school being taught a subject that isn't true but arguing about it only gets you removed from class.
Er, how can a kid in school "know" that a subject "isn't true" before she has even learned anything about it? If the basis for her non-acceptance of Biology is religiously based, then she hasn't made a determination based upon rational assesment of the evidence.
quote:
is YOUR world view and judgment based on what you feel is fact. Not everyone believes in that "fact". Basically it appears that anyone that doesn't believe in that view is dumb while everyone that does is greatly more superior in understanding science... again... not true for everyone.
Tell me, Q, should the people believe who in alien abductions, that the Holocaust never happened, that the 9/11 WTC bombing was a Bush regime conspiracy be allowed to determine for our schools what is "fact"? After all, it is just their "worldview" that determines what they "feel" is fact, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Q, posted 09-06-2007 7:25 PM Q has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Q, posted 09-07-2007 8:33 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 154 of 304 (420461)
09-07-2007 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Q
09-07-2007 8:33 AM


quote:
I think real science is done on both sides
As others have said, I'd like to see some.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Q, posted 09-07-2007 8:33 AM Q has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 159 of 304 (422475)
09-17-2007 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Tal
09-16-2007 8:33 AM


So, Tal, are you going to address the OP, or are you going to continue to proclaim that evolution is false while sidestepping the problem of all those incompetent scientists and all those "impossible" successful predictions and that worldwide conspiracy to deceive the public?
Just to reiterate the issue you should address, this is from the OP:
Do you really think that the hundreds of thousands of scientists who have been advancing our understanding Biology over the last 150 years at the most astonishing pace have all just been deluded? Since several of the main occupations of scientists are critically examining theory and trying to falsify hypotheses, are you also accusing all of those Biologists of being so poor at doing science that they have, to a person, missed the fact that the overarching, foundational theory that underpins all Biology is completely false?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Tal, posted 09-16-2007 8:33 AM Tal has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 163 of 304 (422759)
09-18-2007 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by IamJoseph
09-18-2007 4:36 AM


Re: THE GREATNESS OF EVOLUTION.
Do you really think that the hundreds of thousands of scientists who have been advancing our understanding Biology over the last 150 years at the most astonishing pace have all just been deluded? Since several of the main occupations of scientists are critically examining theory and trying to falsify hypotheses, are you also accusing all of those Biologists of being so poor at doing science that they have, to a person, missed the fact that the overarching, foundational theory that underpins all Biology is completely false?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by IamJoseph, posted 09-18-2007 4:36 AM IamJoseph has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 174 of 304 (422998)
09-19-2007 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by IamJoseph
09-19-2007 1:12 AM


Re: THE GREATNESS OF ... being on topic?
So your contention is that all the thousands of biologists that actually study biology and evolution come to wrong conclusions because they don't understand something that you - knowing nothing of biology or evolution by comparison - happen to know?
They are deluded? Incompetent? Myopic? All of them?
quote:
None of the above. But there are fulcrum glitches in the conclusions, as well as the intermediary process points of evolution: it does not work when the process is back-tracked and applied in its primal foundation: which is a test of it. It cannot be based on any random at the beginning, nor can it be based on infinity. The science and maths become contradictive and illogical here.
So what is your explanation for how hundreds of thousands of scientists could be so wrong about the very foundational underpinnings of their work?
The post undergraduate training of any scientist consists almost entirely of learning how to test hypotheses. How is it that thousands and thousands of scientists in the Life sciences are so poor at testing hypotheses (i.e. being scientists) that they haven't discovered this fatal error?
How is it that when scientists today make predictions based on scientists' work form the past, they are often successful, if that past work is so deeply flawed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by IamJoseph, posted 09-19-2007 1:12 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by IamJoseph, posted 09-19-2007 8:38 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 183 of 304 (423080)
09-19-2007 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by IamJoseph
09-19-2007 8:38 AM


Re: THE GREATNESS OF ... being on topic?
So, are you saying that thousands of scientists are just really bad at doing science?
Like, incompetent?
Also, why are predictions based upon the Theory of Evolution ever successful, if it is so incredibly wrong?
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by IamJoseph, posted 09-19-2007 8:38 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by IamJoseph, posted 09-20-2007 6:50 AM nator has replied

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