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Author
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Topic: Does the Christian God Play with Free Will?
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 1 of 83 (41539)
05-27-2003 10:48 PM
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I apologize if this has been covered before, but I just saw Bruce Almighty the other day and one of the bits in it brought up a question. I couldn't find any posts that deal with this specific question, so I'm starting a new thread. Does the Christian god ever futz with an individual's free will? In Bruce Almighty, Bruce asks the age old question, "Why, god?" and god basically challenges him: If you think you can do it better, then here you go. You've got my powers. Two rules: 1) You can't tell anybody. 2) You can't interfere with free will. I've read quite a few apologia about Christian theology that talk about free will, that god insists upon free will, that god would never force anybody to believe in him as that would violate free will, etc. But then I thought about Pharaoh. God tells Moses that he's going to "harden Pharaoh's heart" against Moses: Exodus 7:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. 7:2: Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. 7:3: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. 7:4: But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. So I think my confusion is evident: Why would god play with Pharaoh's free will this way? I thought free will was important. I thought god would never do that. I have often been told that "You have to open your heart to god" and that "He won't force you to believe." But why? God seems to be content to force people to disbelieve. If god wants people to believe, why not make them? Especially when god apparently makes some people deliberately not believe? Note, I'm not talking about any moral questions concerning god's apparent desire to start a war with the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. I'm simply saying since it is apparent that god does make some people disbelieve, why not make people believe? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 11 of 83 (41812)
05-30-2003 8:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 2 by 6days
05-28-2003 12:57 AM
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6days, Thanks for the quotes, but they don't answer my question: Does the Christian god play with free will? That is, can god make you think something? And if he can, does he? Many Christians are insistent about the point of free will, often using it as an example of why Adam and Eve sinned...sure god could have made them so that they would never eat from the Tree of Knowledge, but "god doesn't make you believe." But according to Exodus, god can and does make people not believe. To me, that seems to be an example of playing with somebody's free will. So I want to know how somebody reconciles the two. NeoPagan, for example, does it by essentially discarding the Old Testament. OK...but what about those Christians who don't? Your quote from Ephesians seems to indicate that god can and does make people believe. Faith is a "gift of god," and not something that a person chooses of his own free will: If you believe, it's because god makes you believe. Your quote of John 6 doesn't specifically address my point since there is a difference between playing with a person's free will and claiming that something is destined. That is, there is a difference between living in a world that does have free will but with occasional forcings of behaviour and living in a world where everything is constrained. Or, was Judas the betrayer because he was destined to be or did he choose to be so or did he not want to be but god made him be? Your quote of John 17 and Acts are more about providing evidence geared to persuade. That isn't "playing with free will," as I am defining it. That is, there is a difference between showing you something and letting you decide whether or not you will accept it and actually playing with your fundamental thought processes such that you are physically incapable of having any other reaction. So I still want to know: Does the Christian god play with free will? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by 6days, posted 05-28-2003 12:57 AM | | 6days has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 22 of 83 (42040)
06-04-2003 4:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Philip
06-01-2003 4:25 AM
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Re: Spookiness of Free Will
Philip writes:
quote:
When God hardened Pharoah, God did it in a permissive fashion. In other words God allowed Pharoah's free will to run its demonic course.
But that isn't what the Bible says. It states directly that god actively hardens Pharaoh's heart. Exodus doesn't say that god will keep out of Pharaoh's heart, it doesn't say that god will not interfere but rather let Pharaoh be stubborn in refusing to allow the Israelites to go. Instead, it directly states that god will deliberately and with malice aforethought harden Pharaoh's heart and will do it over and over and over again, despite the presentation of miracles. This statement of yours is the only one that even comes closest to answering my question. You seem to be saying that no, god does not play with a person's free will, but you justify it by contradicting the Bible. That's fine, but I just want to be clear: You are contradicting the Bible in your claim. ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Philip, posted 06-01-2003 4:25 AM | | Philip has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 28 of 83 (42284)
06-07-2003 12:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Paul
06-05-2003 9:17 PM
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Paul responds to me:
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Why would God play with Pharaoh's free will this way?
He didn't and doesn't.
But the story of Pharaoh directly contradicts you: Exodus 7:3: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Notice that it doesn't say that Pharaoh is just a stubborn guy who won't listen. God directly tells Noah that the reason Pharaoh won't listen is because god is going to directly, concsiously, deliberately, and purposefully harden Pharaoh's heart. Isn't that playing with someone's free will?
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Many times God is said to do the things he "permits" to be done.
But Exodus doesn't say that god "permitted" Pharaoh's heart to harden. It says that god deliberately hardened it. Exodus 7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. 7:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. It isn't a question of god knowing that Pharaoh's going to be a jerk and simply letting it happen. Instead, god says that he is going to consciously, deliberately, and purposefully make Pharaoh a jerk.
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God gave Pharaoh the occassion to resist him and harden his "own" heart in the same way that the gospel saves or damns today;
That isn't what the Bible says: "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." Not "I will let Pharaoh's heart be hardened" (of course, that implies god has the wherewithal to do something about it), not "But I know Pharaoh's heart will harden at your plea." "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." God tells Moses that he is going to deliberately, consciously, and purposefully force Pharaoh to behave in a certain manner.
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Ex.4:21 states the same as vs.7 and to me clearly indicates a prediction that God, and what he will do in Pharaohs midst, will cause Pharaoh to harden his own heart.
No, that isn't what the passage says at all. 4:21: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. The text is quite clear: God is going to deliberately, consciously, and purposefully force Pharaoh to behave in a certain manner. It isn't that Pharaoh has a choice in the matter. "I will harden his heart." What part of "I will" is ambiguous?
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Exodus 7:22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh's heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said. Ex. 7:22 makes it quite clear that Pharaoh was in fact hardening his own heart as a result of the signs and wonders going on around him, just as God had predicted to Moses. What God and others were doing around him, and not to him, was what caused Pharaoh to harden his own heart.
Incorrect. That is not what this passage says at all. Question: What was it "the LORD had said"? Be specific, now: "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." Notice that god does not say that the signs and miracles would hardening his heart or that Pharaoh would choose to disbelieve (of course, if you know what I'm going to do before I do it, how can I do anything else and thus is that not also indicative of no free will?) Instead, the Bible is quite explicit: God deliberately, consciously, and purposefully hardens Pharaoh's heart: "I will." Not "Pharaoh will" or "It will." "I will." And god does it not only once but a bunch of times: Exodus 9:12: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 10:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: Exodus 10:20: But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 11:10: And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 14:4: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so. Exodus 14:8: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. Exodus 14:17: And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. Considering that the text of the Bible directly states that god does it ("the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart"), how can anybody say that god didn't do it? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Paul, posted 06-05-2003 9:17 PM | | Paul has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by Ben!, posted 12-21-2004 4:27 AM | | Rrhain has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Pringlesguy7 writes:
quote:
do you mean this having to do with Salvation?
Not directly, no. What we mean is something very basic: If I ask you to pick a card, any card, do you have a free choice to do so? Does god make people do things? The Bible seems to clearly state yes, god does. God makes Pharoah be a stubborn ass. There didn't necessarily have to be ten plagues, but god hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't accede to Moses' demands. ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Pringlesguy7 responds to me:
quote:
But you could get into the debate that God inspires people to do things.
But that isn't what the text says. The Bible does not say that god comes to Pharaoh and convinces him through some sort of debate to refuse Moses. Instead, it says that god tells Moses directly that he will "harden Pharaoh's heart."
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I believe that God can make you do things.
Then god does play with free will. And if so, why doesn't god force people to believe? If god truly loves us and he sees that some of us are going down the path of wrack and ruin, then why doesn't he intervene to save them?
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But you have to realize we are living in a different time now, than thousands of years ago in the OT days.
Why? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Pringlesguy7 responds to me:
quote:
In the OT days, God dwelt in a "place"
Irrelevant. Where god is has nothing to do with whether or not god plays with free will.
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God's voice is not some thundering flash of lighting.
Why not? The Bible is quite colorful in describing the Spielbergian special effects that happen when god decides to manifest. Whether or not those things happen any more in this day and age is irrelevant, though. The question is, does god play with free will? And if so, why doesn't he save people who are on the wrong path?
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yes, he does harden Pharoahs heart. BUt that is not forcing him to believe.
Indeed...it's the opposite: It's forcing him to disbelieve. If god is loving, why would he deliberately make somebody a stubborn jackass and then throw increasingly cruel punishments upon innocent people as a response to what he caused to happen?
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He did intervene, he sent his son Jesus as our sin offering, and he has given all of us the chance, we CHOOSE whether to accept it or not, like right now, it seems as you are choosing to reject it.
Incorrect. You have no idea what I believe. Don't think that just because I disagree with you that it means I don't believe in god.
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And if you look at it this way, we all deserve to die and go to tell.
Why? What did a just-born baby do to deserve everlasting torment in hell? And if god plays with free will, why doesn't he save us from going down the primrose path?
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no where does it say that we are worthy, or righteouss on our own.
Incorrect. In many passages, the Bible clearly states that salvation is done through works. You want to get to heaven? Then all you have to do is live a good life. Here's but one example: Psalms 62:12: Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. And let us not forget Moses and his family. Why were they saved? Because they were the only righteous people: Genesis 6:9: These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And then there are these paragons of virtue: Job 1:1: There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. 1 Kings 15:14: But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days. Luke 1:5: THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 1:6: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 2:25: And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. So it seems that Noah and Job and Asa and Zacharias and Elisabeth and Simeon were all righteous.
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THere is room for everyone in Heaven, but not everyone will accept it, lets face it, sin is mankinds downfall.
Says who? You? Why should we believe you? You're not god. I think it would be best to let god decide. Doesn't your holy book say something about judging?
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IT says in the NT that people want to see miracles to believe, but that even then they will not believe.
So if god plays with free will, why not make them believe? Surely god, who knows the hearts and minds of all, could have a one-on-one conversation that would adequately resolve all doubt in that individual. And that's not even playing with their free will. Remember that old puzzle about the nine dots that you have to connect with four straight lines, not lifting your pencil from the paper? It can be done in three. "Poppycock," you might say, but I don't have to crawl into your head and play with your mind in order to get you to know that it can be done. All I have to do is show you. So even if god doesn't play with free will, why won't he take the time and effort to convince those who need a little more tutoring?
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Miracles are not common like they were in the days of Elijah and Moses.
Why not? What's god got to lose? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by Pringlesguy7, posted 10-10-2003 3:33 PM | | Pringlesguy7 has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 40 of 83 (70869)
12-03-2003 6:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by Prozacman
12-03-2003 5:10 PM
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Prozacman, So god doesn't force us to believe him, but he does force us to be sinners. That's just a variaton on the other bizarre concept that works don't get you into heaven (ya gotta believe!), but they will get you into hell. ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Prozacman, posted 12-03-2003 5:10 PM | | Prozacman has replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 46 of 83 (71796)
12-09-2003 4:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Prozacman
12-08-2003 6:14 PM
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Prozacman responds to me:
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Well, yea this god did force us to be sinners when Adam and Eve were tricked by the serpent
But Adam and Eve weren't tricked by the serpent. Nobody told them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. The only thing the serpent tells Eve is that god lied about dying if one were to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. He never tells her to go ahead and eat from it. How is telling the truth a trick?
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unless god had no ability to fortell what was going to happen.
But it's such an obvious result. If you have a delicate Mhing vase you want to keep unblemished, do you put it on a wobbly pedestal and put a baby that has just learned how to walk in the same room and then disappear for an hour? Do you seriously think that a baby will understand your admonition of "Do not touch"? Of course not...the baby doesn't know any better. You do, however, so if you don't want the baby to touch your vase, you put the vase where the baby can't get at it. I'm not saying Adam and Eve were stupid. I'm saying they were innocent. They didn't understand what obedience means because that requires comprehension of good and evil...which they didn't have yet because they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge.
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allowing the serpent(who was Satan in christian theology)
There is no justification for this, though. The serpent is constantly referenced as an animal, not a supernatural being. It is physically cursed...its limbs taken away, forced to crawl on the ground on its belly, and enmity put between the generations of humans and the generations of snakes. That's an animal, not the devil.
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Yes, St. Paul taught that the "works of the law" will not get you into heaven, but faith in Jesus will.
So a person who was a complete bastard who converts just before he dies will go to heaven while a person who was a saint but never accepts Jesus will go to hell. Doesn't seem very just now does it? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Prozacman, posted 12-08-2003 6:14 PM | | Prozacman has replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 48 of 83 (71960)
12-09-2003 7:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by Prozacman
12-09-2003 4:57 PM
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Prozacman responds to me:
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You are correct about no one telling A&E to eat of the tree of knowledge(of good & evil), but god did warn them NOT to eat of it or they would die.
So why is the serpent being picked on? The serpent didn't tell Eve to eat from the tree. And the fact that god told them not to eat from the tree is essentially irrelevant. Adam and Eve were innocent. They didn't understand the difference between good and evil since they hadn't eaten from the tree. And since obedience is a function of knowing good and evil, there is no way Adam and Eve could be expected to obey the commandment from god not to eat from the tree. They're not stupid...they're innocent.
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Well, as I used to see it, A&E didn't die physically
But that isn't what the Bible promises to happen. The language used by god to Adam is of a physical death.
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Instead they died spiritually.
There was no such warning. But even so, that is irrelevant. No matter why god didn't want them to eat from the tree, Adam and Eve were incapable of understanding obedience. Eventually, they were going to. The serpent has nothing to do with it.
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So, x-ians ASSUME that the serpent was the devil AND wanted to get A&E in trouble with god.
But that's an assumption without justification, don't you think? If I were to say to you, "Don't eat from this tree for if you do, your heart will explode from your chest and burst into a thousand pieces, causing you to die," is there really any justification in claiming I didn't really mean it? That I was just being metaphorical? I don't deny that people make the claims that you are putting forth here. I am simply asking if those claims are justified using the Bible as a reference or perhaps if they are making it up out of whole cloth.
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Of course the big problem is that god didn't tell A&E what he meant by 'death' in the first place.
Incorrect. If you look at the text, it is apparent that god was referring to a physical death. ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Prozacman, posted 12-09-2003 4:57 PM | | Prozacman has replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 50 of 83 (72474)
12-12-2003 5:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Prozacman
12-11-2003 11:32 AM
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Prozacman responds to me:
quote:
Why is the serpent being picked on?? From the christian perspective
I don't know how to make this any more clearer. Let me try again: I don't care what the "Christian perspective" is. I know that lots of people think the serpent was the devil. And lots of people think the serpent "tricked" Eve into eating from the tree. The question is: Is there anything in the Bible that actually justifies this claim? Just because people claim that the Bible says it doesn't mean it actually does. It could be just a bunch of wishful thinking and preconceived assumptions that are driving it.
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This idea seems to be more consistent with ancient Jewish idea that the serpent was the adversarial angel who worked with god to test Job's faith.
Where do we get this? The serpent is an animal, not an angel. It is compared to the other animals, is treated as an animal, and gets physically cursed even unto its children (just like you might do to an animal). Where is the justification that the serpent was the Adversary?
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Yes, the language used in Genesis does speak of a physical death. Unfortunately some christians think it was only a spiritual death that A&E suffered
So where is the justification for it? I don't deny that they believe it, but where is the justification for it? Where do we find the verses in the Bible that indicate that when god told Adam he would die a physical death, he didn't really mean it?
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while other christians believe it was a physical death, but that A&E would die later because of the "curse"
Again, where is the justification? God doesn't tell Adam that he would die eventually...god tells him that he would die that very day and since Jewish tradition measures days by sunsets ("evening and morning"), that means Adam was going to be physically dead by sunset. Obviously, that doesn't happen. But that doesn't change the fact that that's what god said was going to happen.
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Does this make any sense? Only to the faithful.
And that's fine. Faith doesn't require logic. I'm simply asking if it is logical.
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Yes, I do think there's no justification in assuming that the 'devil' wanted to get A&E in trouble with god.
But there is no justification that the serpent had anything to do with the devil, either. ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Prozacman, posted 12-11-2003 11:32 AM | | Prozacman has replied |
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Zoraster's evil twin responds to me... ...in a complete non sequitur. Was there a point you were trying to make? The topic of the post to which you were responding had to do with whether or not the story of Genesis can be reasonably interpreted to indicate that the serpent mentioned was the devil and told Eve to eat from the Tree. Note that it has nothing to do with whether or not the story of Genesis is actually true. It is simply a script analysis. Given the text, where does one find the justification that the serpent is the devil, that the serpent "tricked" Eve into eating from the tree, and that Adam was told something other than if he ate from the tree, he would die a physical death before sunset? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Zoraster's evil twin responds to me:
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Satan did inhabit the serpent, and he was found at the side of Eve whispering lies and vanities into her ear.
And your justification of this is what, precisely? Sorry, but Paradise Lost isn't sufficient evidence since it is not the actual text we are analysing.
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I find Milton's script on the paradise tale much more enchanting and leaving less to the imagination than the dusty ol' Bible..
That may be, but we aren't discussing Paradise Lost. We're discussing Genesis. The only reason Paradise Lost was written is because of Genesis. ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Zoraster's evil twin responds to me:
quote:
I fail to see a difference between Genesis, who's writers swear to have conversed with God himself, and Milton, who in several books of Paradise Lost converses with a heavenly muse; would the christian God lead him astray?
Um, are you seriously claiming that Milton was not influenced in any way by any Christian? That he was actually, say, a Buddhist who had a revelation that turned out to be precisely coordinated with Christian mythology? Milton is not an original source. It's rehashed Christianity. It wouldn't exist were it not for the Christian society in which Milton existed.
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I'd say it's better evidence than you'll find in an ancient riddle like that.
But it's based upon the "ancient riddle." So if you don't like the "ancient riddle," why do you cotton to the identical statement with chocolate sprinkles? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain
Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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You're still avoiding the issue. We're talking about Genesis, not Paradise Lost. And you're still missing the point: Milton wrote Paradise Lost only after all the various doctrine about the serpent being the devil and such were created. It isn't an original source and cannot be considered. If Source A says Statement X and Source B quotes Source A as saying Statement X, is Source B really saying anything original? Can it be used for anything? Milton is just rehashed Christianity. It wouldn't exist were it not for the pre-existing doctrine. Where in Genesis do we find the justification? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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