Warm soup/ or Hot Soap

I've been browsing the "Origin of Life" forum and keep finding references to the "Warm Soup" theory of abiogenesis, but can find no references to Louis Lerman's "Pre-Boom" hypothesis,or mention of the "Bubblesol Cycle"... Why? His proposed theory came out nearly 14 years ago... Has it been discredited in some way, or is it just that no one here has heard of it at all?

Can you flesh that post out a bit? Links or library references would be mighty helpful.

I'm new to forum procedures,and do not know how to attach a link, so...I'll do it manually.
"Bubble Genesis of Life" @ Bubble Genesis of LifeThis theory allows for multiple dynamic enviroments/interfaces and cyclical production leading to reproductive production.This contrasts sharply with the image cast by the "Warm Soup" theory -stagnant,isolated,random,and noncyclical.
The theory leads rather neatly into a "Catastrophic Creation" process,where the supposedly entirely destructive bolide events of the early earth could have constructive abiogenic consequences as well.If true this might push back the estimate for lifes beginnings.Edited by Simonsays, : Typo and a spelling error.

Ah! I had heard of this idea - but I'm not finding much of anything online and free about it. I don't want to turn loose of $32.00 to get more at the moment, though I'll certainly go look at the Texas Tech library next time I'm there.http://www.springerlink.com/content/lp80837011613605/
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g3mtl64p9378668q/both look good, but in the absence of anything equally meaty for us to discuss here, I don't see how I can promote this topic - there would hardly be enough to discuss.

Hi AdminCoragyps,
I checked out the two sites you listed...(I agree that they both looked rather skimpy) However,other than that they both dealt with Aerosols and abiogenesis, I saw no connection to "Louis Lerman",the "PRE_BOOM" hypothesis, or the "Bubblesol Cycle".
I'm not sure what keywords you used in your site search(aerosols?,abiogenesis?), but I apparently had more luck.
Besides the link I gave in message three,(which you did not refer to)here are two more... all of them FREE!1.) "Natural consequences of the terrestrial bubble-aerosol9bubblesol..."(pdf) @ http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2002/pdf/2062.pdf2.) "DO MARTIAN BLUEBERRIES HAVE PITS ?... ARTIFACTS OF MARTIAN WATER PAST"(pdf) @http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/earlymars2004/pdf/8063.pdfThere are more sites, but I'm a little pressed for time at the moment.
I hope your lack of successful search hits is not an indicator that you're a graduate of the Michael Behe school of word searching.
While I agree that the articles you cited have little to gnaw on,I don't see how that is the case for a "Soup vs. Soap" debate.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.This is a subject of considerable interest to my non-admin self - and the links I gave above appear to be quite closely related. I just wish that more scientific, as opposed to journalistic, references were online. Now what shall we discuss?Edited by AdminCoragyps, : No reason given.

Hi Simonsays,
Short answer, yes. I'm looking through funded proposals by NASA but haven't found the one I've heard mentioned a few times, but aerosols as concentrating locations for Origins of Life events is being investigated. A lot of research is still done on the "prebiotic soup" though, mainly due to ease of analysis.I'll hunt through some of my abstract books to see if there's anything.

Okay, I need a little help ... with the scientific terms "blueberries" and "strawberries" as applied to martian artifacts ...I assume they are not used to make pie.ps welcome to the fray.

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Help on BlueberriesMore on blueberriesHope that helps you on your way.Edited by jar, : apallin spallin

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I was only able to access the abstracts from your two links, due to not wanting to pony up for the full articles and my computer going into terminal meltdown,(picking up a new one hopefully in a couple of weeks)but they both seem to concentrate(pun intended) only on aerosols. The bubble genesis aspect(think foam) was the more inteteresting aspect for me,both because of the primitive "cell" comparison,and because as a bonified "Mac.@ Cheese" addict I've seen my share of runaway bubble formation... ("Warm Soup" just doesn't do it for me).
I also would like to have more scientific articles to peruse on the subject.
As to what I would like to discuss...how about "Bubblegenesis".Specifically "Catastrophic Creation". In what ways could Catastrophic events (I.e. Comet/asteroid impacts,Supervolcanoes,ice ages,magnetic reversals,etc.) affect the "Bubblesol Cycle" ?
Current guesses as to when life began date after the proposed early bombardment of the earth by asteroids and comets. I question that hypothesis.

The bubble-bath boil over could be one way to combine the elements for OOL (origin of life) from the deep sea vents with those of the surface.The aerosols a way to "fertilize" the whole globe.It's fascinating: thanks.

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Hi RAZD,
You forgot the catastrophic component... Supervolcanoes and cometary /asteroid impacts might spread the ingredients to the edge of space and beyond. That's two extra locations besides the solid/liquid and liquid/gas interfaces you mention. Plus, space/or near space chemistry would be anaerobic(spellcheck?)(no oxygen)so it would allow those scenarios where oxygen would not be allowed.

Hi again Razd,
(Got logged off at the Library.Had to relog on.)I own a book ("Not by Fire ,but by Ice") that points to a strong correlation between Geomagnetic reversals and extreme geologic events; (i.e. Volcanism,Ice Ages,mountain building, etc.)Ironically, the extreme hot events(volcanic) and the extreme cold(Ice Ages)appear to be concurrent.
Creationists might complain when told about O.O.L. experiments saying something like "where were the test tubes,the beakers,on an early earth?" The conjunction of hot and cold above makes me think of "Lava Tubes",and "Ice Caves"... Just as chemicals might pass from bubble to bubble(think foam),they might also pass from lava tube to lava tube,and from ice cave to ice cave.(think concentrated sugars,image of melting popsicles)
Rather than just a sea of soupy organics floating around with some Brownian motion, I envision cauldrons of volcanic glass,and glacial ice,where chemicals stew and boil...But also shoot up in the air with the regularity of "Old Faithfull"(Yellowstone Nat. Park geiser).

In Message 11 Ken posted the following: This thread has been a little cold for a while, so I though I would warm it up with adding into the discussion just what kind of soup we are talking about.Leaving aside for now the article above {and its source - the "Center for Science and Culture" is a Discovery Institute program - and the possibility of quote mines, misrepresentations, and just plain missing information, etc, that are common to creationist\IDologist articles}, what are we talking about for the early earth atmosphere, land and water (lakes and seas) conditions?Going back to my column RAZD - Building Blocks of Life, I have to agree that the average condition on earth was not reducing as had been previously assumed, and I discussed briefly what it may have been like:

quote:

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The Earth Back Then

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There have been experiments on what might have been happening outside the earth's atmosphere in conditions simulating the early solar system. Scientists made glycine, alanine and serine, three of the basic parts of proteins from which all life is made, by simulating conditions that are commonplace in interstellar space and shining ultraviolet light on deep-space-like ''ices'' (18 Burton 2002 & 19 anon 2002) - again pointing to a ready source of pre-formed amino acids from space and removing the necessity of their formation somewhere on earth. This is also beginning to stretch the definition of "Prebiotic Compound'' to it's limit, for amino acids are the molecules that living organisms are made from.

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As we can see, these prebiotic molecules may have formed outside of the earth. If these molecules did come to earth from space, the next question is what earth was like in those early days and what kind of existence was possible. This would have been before free oxygen (O₂) was readily available in the atmosphere. While early models of the earth assumed an acidic ("reducing") atmosphere, recent modeling of the Earth's early atmosphere suggests more neutral conditions (e.g. CO₂, N₂, H₂O) may have existed (15 Ehrenfreund et al 2002). This would also compare more with the current atmospheres of Mars - 95% CO₂, 2% N₂ - and Venus - 96% CO₂, 3.5% N₂ - although Venus currently has an acidic ("reducing") atmosphere with <0.5% H₂SO₄, HCl, and HF as a result of greenhouse effects (20 Eskridge 2005).

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Whether the original atmosphere was acidic ("reducing") or neutral, most researchers still accept that O₂ experienced a large increase near 2.3 billion years ago, long after life first evolved, and the evidence indicates that O₂ was less than ~10-3 current levels during the Archean if not lower (21 Kasting & Pavlov 2001). This indicates that the earliest life form(s) were likely based on some other energy transfer system than one using free oxygen (ie some kind of anaerobic system).

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The three oldest known deposits of sedimentary rock are at Isua and Akilia in southwest Greenland (3.8 to 3.7 Ga), the Pilbara in northwestern Australia (3.5 to 3.3 Ga), and Barberton in eastern South Africa (3.5 to 3.3 Ga), and older sedimentary deposits have apparently been destroyed by tectonic activity (22 Westhall 2005). The Greenland ones have been altered by metamorphic changes such that fossils are not detectable, but the other two deposits show microfossils of early cyanobacterial life (these microfossils appear very similar to some modern cyanobacteria and are already fairly well evolved organisms).

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The period between the formation of the earth (4.56 Ga) and these deposits leaves a billion year gap in the record, and the earliest records we have of sedimentary deposits already have fully developed microbial life forms. There is a gap in the knowledge as it currently exists.

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The column was written in 2005, so it is ~2 years out of date compared to recent research in this field, but I don't expect much has happened to change the soup mix of late (I have not heard of any new theories in this regard).Does this mean we have no source of acidic environments on earth? We can look at sources of natural acid in todays world to see what they could be like and how prevalent they could be. A google on "acid springs" presents a prolific list of sites, from which I picked (you'll see why):UW Bacteriology | Error page

quote:

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Life at High Temperatures
by Thomas D. Brock

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Each hot spring is unique. Even springs that look the same differ in characteristics such as temperature, flow rate, and chemistry of the water. One chemical property is so important that it has great influence on the kinds of organisms present: the acidity of the water. Some springs, such as those at Norris and Mud Volcano have very acid, sour-tasting water. They contain sulfuric acid, derived from the sulfur-rich gases emanating from the earth. Acid springs are usually concentrated in special basins, such as that of Sylvan Springs shown below, an important feature at the west end of Gibbon Meadow.

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The microorganisms in the acid springs are entirely different from those in the neutral to alkaline springs. Indeed, the organisms of acid hot springs have two environmental hurdles to overcome, high temperature and acidity. These organisms, called thermoacidophiles, are probably derived from some of the first organisms that arose on this planet.

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... Most acid springs in Yellowstone have pH values between 2 and 4, and the neutral/alkaline springs have values mostly from 7 to 9. ...

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We also see that the "extremophiles" found in these hot springs are probably closely related to the first kinds of life, and they do not use oxygen in their energy cycle so they could survive in the early atmosphere\environment.These hot springs are of geo-thermal origin, a process that was ongoing on early earth up to the period of meteoric impact. Again from my column article:

quote:

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Support for this also comes from the record of meteorite bombardment of the moon, which indicates that meteorites were much more common during the early days of this planet. There is also reason to believe there may also have been a peak of meteorite activity just before the earliest known life appeared, some 3.9 to 3.8 billion years ago (14 Hartmann et al 2000 & 15 Ehrenfreund et al 2002).

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Thus it is likely that acidic hot springs were not uncommon on the face of the prebiotic earth. Similar environments could be found at thermal hot vents in the ocean floors. From my column article again:

quote:

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One area that may exhibit such properties is the deep ocean floor around the thermal vents, where life today is still a bizarre chemistry for organisms compared to what we know. Recently, simulating such conditions amino acids were combined into peptides (23 Simpson 1999). Similar research synthesized the critical compound pyruvic acid (CH₃-CO-COOH) from CO in the presence of iron-sulphide at 250C and pressures equivalent to a depth of 7 km within the rock (24 Earle 2000).

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Thus we have two known environments where favorable conditions are available.When you combine this with the "Bubblesol Cycle" delivery system of the OP, this provides the soup for the molecules delivered by the meteors to meet and get together.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : thermal hot ventsEdited by RAZD, : end

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