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Author Topic:   Murchison Meteor Questions
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 196 of 216 (423584)
09-22-2007 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by RAZD
09-22-2007 11:36 PM


You don't remember the issue of chiralty?
Razd:
What does that have to do with adenine on the Murchison meteor?
A great deal actually...
If artificial synthesis of amino acids results in racemic mixtures, and the extracts of Murchison are the same. Then it lends further credence to the position that the adenine was synthesized rather than extracted.
You don't remember avoiding this already in my message #45?
rob writes:
As for controversy on Murchison (in this case the issue of chiralty) consider this article entitled, 'Murchison's Amino Acids: Tainted Evidence?': http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=...
Somewhere you said it was not even on topic, but I reminded you that it was part of the OP topic.
From the Op:
There are specifically two noticeable similarities between Miller’s experiments and Murchison; chiralty, and the synthesis of adenine or other biological chemicals. Both are as questionable and ambiguous as the Miller experiments that mirror them.
I’d like to focus on the synthesis of Purines first. The issue of chiralty can be discussed later.
As I said to you before about this, I'd say it's later now... eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2007 11:36 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 12:33 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 197 of 216 (423592)
09-23-2007 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by RAZD
09-22-2007 11:36 PM


Forget chiralty...
You know what? Forget about the chiralty issue Razd.
The more I think about it, the more I think it will just be a big mess.
The fact is, no one is disputing that amino acids were found on Murchison. So it's not as thought they were synthesized. Even if it were totally clear that they are racemic (which is a big mess of it's own), it wouldn't lend any help to me (that I am aware of) for arguing that it has anything to do with the synthesis of adenine as opposed to extraction.
However, if after looking the issue over, you find that it lends help to your position, feel free to bring it up. It is part of the topic...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2007 11:36 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 199 of 216 (423631)
09-23-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Percy
09-23-2007 7:33 AM


Re: The acid test.
Percy:
That and misrepresentations of my position, such as your misbegotten accusation that I erred in saying you were talking about peer review when that's exactly what you were talking about.
That is not the record....
I never said that I was not talking about peer review. I was refuting your claim, that I had said that truck drivers make better peer reviewers. I only asked if it took a truck driver to do a thorough and objective job.
You should know that sometimes it helps to get someone from the outside to critique a given system. Insiders often protect their own interests. It's called bias and It happens with everyone. I am not immune from the temptation. Like you, I try not to engage in such behavior. But we are on the inside of our respective worldviews.
Percy:
It is also a good idea to have what someone actually said in a past message right in front of you when revisiting a previous point, rather than going from memory.
Such practices would probably have avoided some of your more obvious blunders, like claiming that empirical and empiricism were two different things, or constructing arguments around the assumption that rationality and Rationalism were the same thing
The words emperical and empericism can have different meanings depending on their application and how strictly one defines them. I went overboard on that count... but conceded the point like you wanted, but you still won't let it go.
And I never said that 'rationalism' and 'rationality' were the same.
The way I used them was an equivocation but I was incorrectly using the word rational in leu of 'logic' or 'philosophy'. It was another misunderstanding...
Frankly, you're being rather 'irrational' about it all.
The problem here isn't any of my blunders or those of others. The reason they occur at all is because we are often fighting, rather than communicating. I'll take some of the responsibility. But don't try and put it all on me Percy. I can't bear the sins of the whole world. My own are heavy enough...
I am the only one here, who has said words like, 'that's true', or 'you're right', or 'I must concede'... in this thread. I have shown others here to be wrong on this point or that, but they do not concede a thing (actually, I remember MattP agreeing with one of my premises, though I had not really stated the premise in such a way).
We're not working together to find the truth. You're trying to undermine every argument of mine in any way possible as I attempt to understand the truth about these extractions and learn along the way.
I think most of my difficulties have come from overreacting to the attacks of you and the others. It can be chaulked up to a lack of confidence on my part; kind of like a witness who is railroaded by an agressive and overbearing attorney. I even made that point to Buzz in the moderation thread.
Percy:
You've once again misstated my position and so have forced yet another reply.
The fact that we have a different worldview doesn't mean we are misstating each other. We just don't see eye to eye. You're attempting to undermine my arguments by essentially impuning my charater. That is a logical fallacy...
I have not intentionally misstated or misrepresented anyone! I can only call them as I see them. This is difficult ground and requires complete attention. Acting defensively often leads to mistakes. And I think that describes the difficulties between you and I better than anything.
In defense of molbiogirl, you said it yourself Percy, in message 3:
The failure of someone to understand your argument may be as much your own fault as theirs. Please take this into account.
Mistakes and missteps are part and parcel of the human condition. Please take this into account, too.
It works both ways...
Any failure of me to understand your arguments, or those of others, is as much your fault, or theirs, as it is my own.
There is no-one here that is above 'the human condition'.
Can we stop with the personal attacks couched in sophisticated defensive postures and discuss the issues?
Rather than this kind of defense, you may want to jump on the fact that I really blew it on the chiralty issue as far as it is relevant to adenine and the Murchison extractions. That was another embarrassing blunder on my part. Another good example of my ignorance laid bare for all to see.
Maybe you can use it to make me look like a complete idiot. Especially if I deny it as you claim I always do.
You know, I don't always take your word for it and concede right away because I don't trust you. You're often too emotionally attached to your Materialism as all of us can be when we are commited to a particular worldview.
As a Christian, I struggle with it too. There is this side of us that wants to kill, to give the final blow, to devastate the opposition. I confess that such emotions played a large part in inspiring this thread. I very much dislike the the arrogance of molbiogirl. Frankly, hers is offensive to my own!
It is emotions like that, that get in the way of objectivity. It is what lead molbiogirl to posit the Murchison extractions as evidence of nonbiological adenine. And though there are problems with Murchison, my errors about what those are, and are not, came from reactionary postures of my own.
Nonetheless, there are still issues to discuss objectively if we all get a grip. Please... can we let the last 100 posts be about the subject?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Percy, posted 09-23-2007 7:33 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Percy, posted 09-24-2007 8:08 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 202 of 216 (423675)
09-23-2007 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by RAZD
09-23-2007 12:33 PM


You're right Razd... it doesn't follow. But I wasn't saying that all B is A because all A is B. Only that it lends credence to the conclusion that the extractions were not natural in origin. But even that won't wash...
Hear me out...
Razd:
The evidence is that adenine and other prebiotic chemicals are synthesized by natural chemical processes in space, and because they are natural chemical processes like the "artificial synthesis of amino acids" they too would result in racemic mixtures.
Actually, from what I uderstand, even that may be irrelevant.
That is the point I wanted to make
, but it's not that simple. It appears that purines may not even be subject to chiralty. They are 'prochiral'. I simply don't have a handle on the issue...
Razd:
Did you actually read your own article where they explain this?
Yeah, I read it for the third time after putting out here for you again. It made me realize that chiralty in amino acids has little or nothing to do with purines like adenine.
That's why I said forget it in my second response a bit ago. I began to realize it was comparing apples and oranges. It may be worth discussing in another context, but not as it regards purine extractions of Murchison.
So, you were accidently correct! Chiralty appears to be irrelevant to Murchison extractions of adenine.
Hey... I see that once in a while you get lucky too.
Razd:
Why not start a new thread on chirality?
I think my hands are full enough with what's here already... don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 12:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 5:32 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 204 of 216 (423686)
09-23-2007 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by RAZD
09-23-2007 5:32 PM


Razd:
So are we done here? Time for summary of positions?
We're done with chiralty here... I may get to it in the other thread. But probably not any time soon.
I don't know that it is time for summaries yet, but you've been the major participant representing the counterperspective, so do as you wish.
I think I am going to take a little break from all of this. Recharge...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2007 5:32 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 206 of 216 (423777)
09-24-2007 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Percy
09-24-2007 8:08 AM


Re: The acid test.
Percy:
When you advance an erroneous argument, noting the errors in your argument is not a personal attack.
You're right if you mean that it is not necessarily an overt attack. But when it is done purely for the purpose of taking political advantage, then yes, it is. I now have a better insight as to your thinking on the matter:
Percy writes:
This message's title is a self-evident statement, but I use the title to emphasize something some may have lost sight of: this is a debate site.
The purpose of debate is to identify and exploit weaknesses in the arguments of the other side while emphasizing the strengths in your own arguments. The greatest luck in debate is to catch your opponent in a blatant error or misstatement. A single one can be fatal. Those of you who are older might remember President Ford's statement in debate with Jimmy Carter that Eastern Europe wasn't dominated by the Soviet Union, a classic example of losing a debate with a single blunder...
...nowhere can I find anything about aiding the other side, giving them a break, finding the sense behind their nonsense, etc. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zero.
I think people have lost sight of what a debate is. When you find yourself in a discussion where both sides are equally committed to finding out the truth and reaching common ground, treasure it, because it will be rare. The rest of the time, be polite, be non-adversarial, be honest, be accurate, and go for the jugular. This is a debate.
( http://EvC Forum: AdminNosy banned? -->EvC Forum: AdminNosy banned? )
As I said before, there were many times in this thread that those giving the counterperspective made mistakes. I didn't try to slit their throat because of it. I realize that they believe in the institution of science with mostly pure intentions.
This isn't Armaggedon Percy (not yet), this is a 'virtual debate' on the internet.
Most people here are laymen, and I think some of you do a bit too much feasting upon the weak, using what relatively little knowledge you have, to smite those who know even less. I only know that because of my own animal instincts which want to do the same. It's a human tendency; to exalt ourselves. If you read many of my older posts, you'll see that 'killer instinct' still blatently at work in me. It is controlled in me to the point now, that even a casual sarcastic remark aimed at science in general is rebuffed by AdminBuzz who rightly expects higher standards from me.
And let's not forget that I have already admitted that such an emotion partially motivated this thread. Forgive me... molbiogirl made an honest mistake.
I'd like to get back to working together to find the truth.
Percy:
We're engaged in this subdialogue because you continue to claim that errors in your arguments are of no consequence, that your arguments stand as valid whether they're erroneous or not. That's not true. When your arguments are flawed, your point fails.
( parenthetically I find it interesting that you keep using derivatives of the word, 'truth'.)
When one uses the wrong word such as 'rational', instead of the correct word 'logic', and his opponents misunderstand him and therefore attempt to confuse the issue and take political advantage... it is not his argument that is defeated. It is communication, resolution, and truth that is defeated.
Kuresu, Razd, Javaman, and MattP haven't engaged in such tactics (Razd maybe to a limited degree, but almost with a smile on his face); they were predominantly talking about the topics and sub topics. But I think they recognize a legitimate missunderstanding or lazy grammar for what it is. But they were able to let it go...
Only you have persistently tried to deliver the fatal blow to my credibility in this debate rather than try to understand the points.
It is this kind of thing that I was complaining about earlier, but I couldn't put my finger on exactly what it was. My apologies if most of it belongs in the moderation thread. But most of your participation in this thread... doesn't belong anywhere. We have probably wasted 50 posts on this [i]'subdialogue'[/qs] (as you call it).
This is an internet debate forum. Your tactics belong on a battlefield where the victor will use the word of his mouth as a double-edged sword. Though even there it will not be for the sake of slaughter, but of truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Percy, posted 09-24-2007 8:08 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Percy, posted 09-24-2007 10:49 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 208 of 216 (423936)
09-24-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Percy
09-24-2007 10:49 AM


Re: The acid test.
Percy:
You did not use "rational" in place of "logic", and no one said you did. You confused rationality with Rationalism, leading you to make arguments based upon the misperception that Javaman had said science isn't rational, when what he actually said was that science cannot be equated with Rationalism.
Of course no one said I did... they were trying to say that I confused rationalism with rationality. But I did not do so... I used the wrong term. I was being lazy...
I am the one who said I used the term 'rational' in place of philosophy (ie. logic). And here is where I said it: http://EvC Forum: Murchison Meteor Questions -->EvC Forum: Murchison Meteor Questions
That is the confusion... I was never equivocating rationalism with empiricism (and I meant 'rational' as another term for philosophy, that was not wise...). They are merely inseperable, because we cannot speak of the empirical without doing so philosophically.
'Rationalism' in place of 'philosophy' and 'logic' in general... Not... 'THE PHILOSOPHY of RATIONALISM'.
This whole mess was caused because you were all driving along with the intention of destroying the enemy (winning the debate) and not in what I was trying to say. And now there is confusion piled upon confusion...
Yes, it is my responsibilty to speak clearly and effectively, but you're not here to help with that. You are here to push me off the edge...
Here is where it started: http://EvC Forum: Murchison Meteor Questions -->EvC Forum: Murchison Meteor Questions
And here is where I first used the term 'rationalism' in place of philosophy by mistake. But I only did so, because JavaMan had invoked it...
I can answer your comment above. Beyond any confusion over the proper meaning of empiricism, I have always invoked rationalism as tool needed for any objective epistemology. And I assume that includes science for a very good reason. Empericism cannot claim that the emperical world is the only valid basis for knowledge other than on a rational basis. Therefore, whatever the defintion of science is, at whatever time, it cannot rely upon the one, without the other. And I think to one extent or another, this is what has occured.
I was never arguing for pure empiricism or pure rationalism. I was always making the case that they must be combined if truth is to be found.
The resulting combination is neither 'empiricism' nor 'rationalism' per se... but it is, as are both of the others, a predominately philosophical worldview. I call it a 'Christian worldview', but others may simply call it 'scientific'.
If you were not so preoccupied with reaching for my jugular while polishing the pretension of one who is curtious and polite, you might hear the words that are coming out of my mouth (fingers actually).
As you said:
Percy writes:
If you now understand this, there's no need to respond.
Exactly!
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Percy, posted 09-24-2007 10:49 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by kuresu, posted 09-24-2007 10:38 PM Rob has replied
 Message 215 by Percy, posted 09-25-2007 8:35 AM Rob has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 210 of 216 (423959)
09-24-2007 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by kuresu
09-24-2007 10:38 PM


The non debate...
Kuresu:
And a hint--if you are arguing that empiricism must be combined with logic, well, guess what? Logic has been at the basis of empiricism since the beginning.
Yes, that's what I said...
Rob:
The resulting combination is neither 'empiricism' nor 'rationalism' per se... but it is, as are both of the others, a predominately philosophical worldview. I call it a 'Christian worldview', but others may simply call it 'scientific'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by kuresu, posted 09-24-2007 10:38 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by kuresu, posted 09-24-2007 11:12 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 212 of 216 (423967)
09-25-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by kuresu
09-24-2007 11:12 PM


Re: The non debate...
kuresu writes:
Here's the problem with your use of rationalism, which you just can't seem to get.
When you juxtapose it to empiricism, it can only mean the philosophy of Rationalism. Do you see why?
Which is why I keep saying that I should not have used the word 'rationalism' in place of philosophy in general. But in the heat of the moment... when I am being piled on by four or five on one, I tend to lose my grip. I lose confidence. And then mistakes such as the one you are capitalizing on appear...
In the past, I would have completely lost my cool by now and started quoting Bible verses and telling you where to go. And then I would have gotten suspended. It's apattern that is in the process of being broken, and it is liberating!
So now, I intend to calmly examine the situation, and not be cowed by the pressure.
kuresu writes:
So if you are arguing correctly, this means you'd be arguing that logic and empiricism must be combined--which, as I stated, it has been since the start.
Since that was my point all along, this subtopic is a non debate and I am glad to move on...
Thanks for your understanding...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by kuresu, posted 09-24-2007 11:12 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by kuresu, posted 09-25-2007 12:29 AM Rob has replied
 Message 214 by ringo, posted 09-25-2007 1:17 AM Rob has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 216 of 216 (424039)
09-25-2007 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by kuresu
09-25-2007 12:29 AM


Re: The non debate...
kuresu:
If it is the latter, do you see that you never answered Java's claim that you are, indeed, a Rationalist? After all, a Rationalist is just as much a philosopher as an Empiricist is.
I see your point, and you are right...
I should have stopped it right, then, and there... by saying that I am not a rationalist. I like to combine disciplines... As I have said before (in other threads), we must combine the rational mind, the existential desires, and the emperical world... into a coherent and composite whole in order to arrive at the truth. Therefore I am not a rationalist. I do however... try to take the best of 'rationalism' (that which it has in common with good logical philosophy in general) and use it properly. So when JavaMan said I use rationalist arguments, he was right. But it was he who called it 'rationalism'. I should have taken the time to calmly stop and think it through right there...
I was also under pressure because of making far too much of the definitions of 'empirical' and 'empiricism' respectively. I was trying to use them to make my case for the effectiveness of 'combined disciplines'. I blew it!
I did not make this clear... so I take responsibility for this mess of sub-topics. But it has nothing to do with defeating the main topic and the question of the the Murchison extractions. I sensed long ago that you guys were attempting to put pressure on and take attention away from the topic by simply discreditting me. I even complained about it. But those not directly engaged in these discusions have a pretty hard time sorting through the mess I imagine. And it doesn't help, when we magnify errors to make it even more so.
I have never claimed that you guys are unqualified to say anything about the Murchison extrations because of your mistakes (remember when you said you didn't think replication was dependant on ATP?) It wasn't that big a deal really. I only thought you seemed a little desperate to again discredit me.
Stop going for the jugular!
If a person wants to take advantage of a mistake, turn up the heat on one (in this case me) who is known to get sloppy under pressure, and win the debate by converting the tendancies of their opponent into a public spectacle, they can certainly do so. It's good theatre and gives much of the mob what it is they came for. It is even personally gratifying...
But doing so has little to do with finding the truth and everything to do with 'winning'! We win the single battle and lose the larger war.
You already understand what I was saying. We covered it earlier. You even defended me against Archer (for which I applaud you): http://EvC Forum: Murchison Meteor Questions -->EvC Forum: Murchison Meteor Questions
kuresu writes:
And technically speaking, science is a philosophy. At least, according to several epistomology charts.
I am not going to say another word about this... I want the rest of the thread left open strictly for Murchison. If you want to debate the definition of science and legitimate epistemology then rip me over there.
Please...
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by kuresu, posted 09-25-2007 12:29 AM kuresu has not replied

  
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