Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,812 Year: 3,069/9,624 Month: 914/1,588 Week: 97/223 Day: 8/17 Hour: 4/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Alan Alda's polio
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 71 (423622)
09-23-2007 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Fosdick
09-22-2007 9:14 PM


Actually, not that big a deal
Actually, that's not quite the real story.
Sister Elizabeth Kinney had been trained as a "Bush Nurse" working under the supervision of a traveling doctor and later during WWI served as a British Army nurse. In 1911 she encountered her first patient with polio. At that time (late 1890 to early 1900s) the normal treatment was immobilization. Instead she treated the symptoms by using hot packs to relieve the pain and physical therapy to try to restore mobility and function.
Her methods were successful and adopted and spread throughout the medical profession as her successes became known. In 1940 she traveled to the US where with support from both public and private sources she established a clinic in Minneapolis, Minnesota in 1942.
Far from being hated, her methods became the norm and are still the suggested method of treatment for symptomatic relief and also used with other similar conditions.
While she was certainly controversial there is no indication she was hated or that her methods were treated differently than any other new treatment regime. She received support in her native Australia, throughout the British Empire and in the US.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Fosdick, posted 09-22-2007 9:14 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 11:57 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 71 (423635)
09-23-2007 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 11:57 AM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
Again, your only cite for the assertion that she was hated and vilified is the one from Wiki and even that is pretty skimpy, since although it alleges what you say, the terms hate or vilify are not used in the article anywhere and the very next paragraph says:
Between 1935 and 1940 she traveled extensively throughout Australia helping to set up clinics. She also made two trips to England where she set up a treatment clinic in St. Mary's hospital near Carshalton where there is a rehabilitation facility to this day. In 1938 the Health Department of New South Wales subjected her work to a medical Royal Commission whose findings condemned her unorthodox procedures as 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'[1].
In 1940 the Government of New South Wales sent Kenny and her adopted daughter Mary (who had become an expert in Kenny's method), to America so that they could present her clinical method for treating polio victims to American doctors.
So while you have the assertion that in 1938 her methods were found to be " 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'' we see by 1940 that not only were her methods adopted and approved but she was being sent by that very same government to teach the methods in other areas.
Further, and from the same article, "In 1934, the Queensland health department began an evaluation of her work which led to the establishment of Kenny clinics in several cities in Australia." so other regional governments in Australia had also tested and approved her methods.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 11:57 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 1:40 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 71 (423651)
09-23-2007 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 1:40 PM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
jar, you're right about what Wiki says about Sister Elizabeth Kinney. But I have my own recollection on the matter, with which I am trying to make a case against the American medical establishment on somewhat diiferent grounds and with a different POV, using polio as a launching pad.
Then if you wish to support your position you need to actually use material that supports your position.
So, did "The Mother's March On Polio" ultimately contribute to the AIDS pandemic. Did the sloppy and dangerous vaccine trials in Africa set HIV into motion? Did modern medicine, with its well-intentioned but blundering attempts to hurry up and make a polio vaccine, unwittingly produce another disaster? Would we all have been better off restricting our counter-polio procedures to Sister Kinney's therapy, and to avoid vaccines in the frist place?
Unless you can supply some support for your position it is just more nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 1:40 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 2:05 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 71 (423656)
09-23-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 2:05 PM


Re: Actually, not that big a deal
You need to provide reasoning and argument to support your position. You've been here long enough to know we do not debate websites.
So far the issue you have presented in the OP was shown to be an example of misrepresentation and quotemining.
AbE: Do you want to talk about the issue of unintended consequences?
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 2:05 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 71 (423672)
09-23-2007 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Archer Opteryx
09-23-2007 2:14 PM


On Sister Kinney
It's possible--just possible--that some medical professionals of Kinney's day conducted research on Kinney's treatments and were genuinely appalled.
Please address this possibility.
Actually, her methods were adopted all over the world and totally changed the symptomatic treatment given to polio patients.
Elizabeth Kinney is one of the pioneers of physical rehabilitation. Her methods were not rejected as Hoot implies. Nor did she ever claim that she could cure Polio.
Polio was a scourge, but not always fatal. FDR and my aunt are good examples of folk with Polio, folk that went on to lead long and active lives.
The big contribution of Sister Kinney was in introducing physical therapy in addition to hot packs as a method of relieving the pain associated with recovery and existence with Polio.
Alan Alda contracted polio in 1943 IIRC, which is several years after Sister Kinney moved to the US and began teaching her techniques. Remember at that time there was no cure for Polio, and the best hope for folk was to minimize the damage and hope for a recovery.
There were other advances being made during that period. The invention of the Iron Lung in 1928 and the improved Emerson Iron Lung in 1931, advanced braces that allowed greater mobility and improvements in small areas like shoes and support hose also made enormous changes in the quality of life of those who caught polio.
We need to remember that 90% or more of the cases of polio were asymptomatic. An additional 4-8% of the cases were minor illnesses, 1-2% were non-paralytic meningitis and only 0.1 to 0.5% of the cases resulted in paralytic poliomyelitis.
The horrendous nature of the disease and the fact that it was highly contagious and epidemic though made it a frightening reality regardless of the actual statistics. As methods of maintaining life improved, the visibility of polio also increased.
BUT...
the key was still to find a way of preventing polio.
And that was finally accomplished in 1952 with the Salk Vaccine and ten years later with the Sabin Vaccine.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-23-2007 2:14 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 8:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 71 (423706)
09-23-2007 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 8:48 PM


On Polio
I didn't know this. You must be a student of polio. Do you think it is fair to say that before indoor plumbing (and before the polio epidemic) most of the infants were naturally innoculated with the polio virus as a result of those contaminated conditions associated with outhouses? Maybe polio is naturally asymptomatic in babies. Would you happen to know?
No, I don't think that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 8:48 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 9:06 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 71 (423709)
09-23-2007 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 9:06 PM


Re: On Polio
sure
Growth of cities.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 9:06 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 11:15 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 71 (423804)
09-24-2007 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 11:15 AM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
Indeed the growth of cities may have been associated with that polio epidemic, but probably not until they began to improve their sanitary conditions with indoor plumbing.
I asked earlier if you wanted to talk about the issue of unintended consequences.
Certainly improving sanitation isolates folk from early exposure to many viruses, and in particular the ones borne by exposure to waste byproducts.
So what?
Improved sanitation also provided innumerable other benefits such as reducing the transmission of far more serious and life threatening diseases.
For the most part, the "Polio Epidemic" was the result of improving technology, increased visibility and the media.
As pointed out, the very vast majority of polio cases are asymptomatic, the person doesn't even know he or she has polio, and in the remaining cases, only a small percentage are life threatening.
However, beginning in 1928 we developed technology that allowed many of those with even in the most serious cases to continue living, however in a very visible and media ready way. The images of people gathered into wards filled with iron lungs were just made for media exposure.
Still, even at the height of the "Polio Epidemic", the Great Epidemic of 1952, only 57,600 Americans contracted polio. That is contracted polio, not died of polio.
Certainly improved sanitation can keep people from contracting diseases earlier in life and those, like polio that are primarily asymptomatic might provide some small advantage by early exposure. However, that is a minor issue compared to all of the other waste borne diseases that are NOT generally asymptomatic and definitely are life threatening during early exposure.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 11:15 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 1:13 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 71 (423821)
09-24-2007 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 1:13 PM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
I lived through that at a vulnerable age. A friend and basketball star at my school got polio and it shriveled up his left leg. It was pretty scary. (Where was Sister Kinney when he needed her? Alas, there were still many doctors who looked down their noses at her methods.)
Except so far you have not shown that "many doctors who looked down their noses at her methods."
I also lived through that period, had family members that were also afflicted with polio, even a friend we visited weekly who was in one of the iron lungs.
Our parents were freaked out because they remembered all too well the so-called Spanish Flu epidemic following WWI. The polio epidemic was the next big public health scare.
Yes, polio was a "Health Scare" with pool closings and fear every summer. However that was also in the 1940s and 1950s and honestly, much of the US at that time was also still without indoor plumbing or municipal water and sewer connections.
You also minimize all of the other advances that happened during that short period, little things like the discovery of antibiotics. Every advance also carries some risks, and often unintended risks. Improvements in sanitation means that babies do not get exposed to many viruses they might have were there less sanitation, antibiotics can lead to drug resistant strains (something by the way that was pointed out even before the first such antibiotics hit the market), improved life sustaining methods can create a quality of life that can be questioned.
The key is to look at overall results.
Here is a list of countries by infant mortality
Can you make a case that infant mortality is lower in those countries without widespread indoor plumbing and sanitation?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 1:13 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 1:42 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 71 (423830)
09-24-2007 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 1:42 PM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
LOL
That is irrelevant.
The point is that sanitation along with other advances reduces infant mortality rates.
If you want I can also link to overall mortality rates.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 1:42 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 12:27 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 71 (424272)
09-26-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 11:23 AM


Re: credibility
How can you assign "personal hate" to an "establishment"?
Of course, that was not what was alleged except by you anyway. Your OP stated that the establishment hated her personally.
The facts and evidence though says otherwise. As has been pointed out to you, her methods were adopted across Australia, she went to England where her methods were adopted and she then came to the US where her methods were adopted.
And I personally witnessed that institutional "hatred."
Well, not based on what you have said here. So far all you have presented is the allegation that your family doctor may have "hated".
Your anecdotal story is all that stands against the actual evidence of the various clinics she helped start and the support she received even from the Government who produced the one alleged negative report.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:23 AM Fosdick has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 71 (424280)
09-26-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 12:27 PM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
And so I remember Sister Kinney with her cheap hot blankets and physical therapy”a simple bush nurse who made no contribution whatsoever to the AIDS epidemic.
She also made no contribution to curing aids, Hoot.
Her contribution, and it was a major one, dealt with treating the symptoms of Polio and with the rehabilitation of those afflicted. Nothing she did would cure polio or help those where the CNS was affected to the extent of diaphragm paralysis.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 12:27 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 71 (424302)
09-26-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 1:27 PM


Re: Achtung!
From YOUR source.
1) Most doctors and medical organizations pigheadedly denounce Sister Kenny and reject her technique. The facts: practically all orthopedists acknowledge medicine's debt to Sister Kenny and employ her treatment in whole or in part. The National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis alone has spent $2 million for advancement of physical therapy, including the Kenny technique. But even when they use the Kenny treatment, most doctors agree that polio is a disease of the nervous system, vigorously reject the Kenny theory that it is primarily a muscle-&-skin disorder.
2) All polio victims treated by Sister Kenny get up and walk; those treated by other orthopedists become lifelong 'brace-&-crutch cripples. The facts: Sister Kenny's record in Minneapolis, over a five-year period, has just about matched the average for all modern polio treatment: 6% deaths, 16% remaining severely paralyzed.
So the very link you provided refutes the point you are trying to make.
Edited by jar, : Change YOU to YOUR

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 1:27 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 2:18 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 71 (424318)
09-26-2007 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 2:18 PM


Re: Achtung!
Ah, you're much too predictable, jar. I knew you'd say that. Which is evidence of your refusal to see my point. Whether you agree or not, there was an attitude issue at the time that piited the American medical establishment against Sister Kinney. Maybe those who made propoganda films about it were wrongly biased against the medical establsihment. But it was still real back then.
Except you have so far failed to show ANY evidence of that.
"Practically all orthopedists" don't add up to the Amerrican medical establishment. And the latter statement is even less convincing: "$2 million...including the Kinney technique..."? That's not much of an endorsement from the rich American medical establsihment.
Too funny. Practically all orthopedists sounds reasonable since all she offered was orthopedics and pain management.
And $2 million dollars back then was a pretty healthy sum. That was more than the cost of a Liberty Ship, and that was just ONE example, not the total response.
So do you have any evidence to support your assertions?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 2:18 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 7:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 71 (424397)
09-26-2007 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 7:54 PM


Re: Achtung!
Not really as tht was already addressed several times in this thread, all the way back in Message 7.
So while you have the assertion that in 1938 her methods were found to be " 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'' we see by 1940 that not only were her methods adopted and approved but she was being sent by that very same government to teach the methods in other areas.
Further, and from the same article, "In 1934, the Queensland health department began an evaluation of her work which led to the establishment of Kenny clinics in several cities in Australia." so other regional governments in Australia had also tested and approved her methods.
So as early as 1934 not only were her methods accepted but there were state sponsored clinics using her techniques. In addition, only two year after the report you cite the very same government that issued the report in question had not only reversed their position but was sponsoring her to travel overseas to teach her techniques.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 7:54 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 8:47 PM jar has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024