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Author Topic:   Mimicry: Please help me understand how
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 17 of 241 (413983)
08-02-2007 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by MartinV
08-02-2007 2:49 AM


Re: Scarlet King Snake
1) Genera Micurus (according Robert Mertens 1954) in Brazil is very poisonous and no predator survive its biting. Consequently no one can remember the species as dangerous.
You're mistake here is thinking that all animals are in the unfortunate situation we humans find ourselves in. In general, we don't know what is good to eat and what is not. We have to learn that information.
Most species react to specific queues from their prey.
A brightly colored poisonous moth may initially draw attention to itself from a sub-set of a predator species, but if it's highly toxic, that will impart a SIGNIFICANT negative selective force. That subset which likes to eat the brightly colored moths doesn't live to reproduce.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 22 of 241 (414156)
08-03-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Vacate
08-02-2007 10:58 AM


"aware"
The interesting thing about the experiment though is that the animals in the region must be aware that such coloration indicates a poisonous snake.
"aware" is probably a bad choice of words here. I don't know that the animal needs to think "this is poisonous" so much as it's just pre-programed by instinct to avoid bright color and patterns.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 51 of 241 (419745)
09-04-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by MartinV
09-04-2007 2:06 PM


Natural Selection plays no role in evolution...
My position is that natural selection play no role in mimicry and no role in the evolution.
If this is your position then we can make some assumptions about your beliefs.
Either a) you don't believe in heredity, therefore the offspring of an individual have absolutely nothing in common with their parents. (in other words, you don't look a thing like your parents)
or b) you believe that individuals in a population can and do frequently reproduce after their death. (in other words, your mother died 5 years before you were born)
However, if you do, in fact, believe that dead individuals do not reproduce and that those that survive to reproduce have child which share their traits, you pretty much have to accept natural selection as a mechanism of evolution.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 59 of 241 (421929)
09-15-2007 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by MartinV
09-15-2007 12:32 AM


All noise and no substance
Pretty pictures, but they don't have anything to do with your point.
You seem to be saying that despite the fact that these insects are poisonous, there's no reason an animal would choose to not eat it, but if you recall from earlier in this sentence, they are POISONOUS.
If you believe that natural selection is NOT responsible for the coloration, let's hear your hypothesis about what is responsible. If is magic elves with tiny paint brushes? Maybe magic angels with tiny paint brushes?
If you don't have a hypothesis, then nothing you have to say has any value whatsoever.
And, by the way, you still haven't answered my post about why you believe that dead parents have offspring that don't look like them.
Does the world you live in have even a tangiential relationship to reality, or are you just spinning off into never never land.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 62 of 241 (421935)
09-15-2007 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by MartinV
09-15-2007 2:15 AM


That hedgehog is 100% dead!
Poisonous for whom? 1 gram of insect poison Cantharidin for instance is enough to kill 20.000 kg of people, but only 7 kg of hedgehog species.
This is your idea of evidence? Hedgehogs, BIG hedgehogs, weigh less that 1kg. So, 1/7th of a gram of cantharidin is enough to off 100% of the hedgehogs that injest it.
However, since we've learned above that you don't believe that DEATH is a significant factor in preventing mating and reproduction, I suppose that this isn't really going to sway you.
Watch out everyone, Martin leads an army of undead hedgehogs on a insect killing spree! Run for your lives!

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 Message 60 by MartinV, posted 09-15-2007 2:15 AM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 67 of 241 (421976)
09-15-2007 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by MartinV
09-15-2007 2:52 AM


Re: That hedgehog is 100% dead!
I don't see your point.
No surprise there. Let me make myself clear. 7 hedgehogs do NOT eat 1 ladybird. If the poison is sufficient to kill 1 hedgehog, that's a complete equation. That hedgehog, despite your early contentions, will STOP eatting once it is dead. Further, it will likewise stop reproducing.

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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 81 of 241 (424179)
09-26-2007 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by MartinV
09-26-2007 12:24 AM


Re: Mimicry
No such phenomenon as unpalatability of wasps or ladybirds exists in reality
So, is your hypothesis that animals don't have the ability to taste? Or that they are incapable of distinguishing between different tastes? Or that they can taste, but they treat all tastes equally?
Your talking and talking and talking and saying nothing. Make a statement which you can back up in fact.
Show me that my dog spits out liver for some reason other than taste.

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Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 84 of 241 (424305)
09-26-2007 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by MartinV
09-26-2007 1:41 PM


Re: Mimicry
I accept your apology.
Further, the fact that your dog eats "meat that smells me" is a bit of a nonseq but we've come to expect nothing less from you.

This message is a reply to:
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