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Author Topic:   Alan Alda's polio
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 31 of 71 (423825)
09-24-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
09-24-2007 1:28 PM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
jar writes:
Can you make a case that infant mortality is lower in those countries without widespread indoor plumbing and sanitation?
Probably not. But what's your point? Can you make a case that polio is more prevalent in those countries without widespread indoor plumbing and sanitation?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 09-24-2007 1:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 09-24-2007 1:49 PM Fosdick has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 71 (423830)
09-24-2007 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 1:42 PM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
LOL
That is irrelevant.
The point is that sanitation along with other advances reduces infant mortality rates.
If you want I can also link to overall mortality rates.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 1:42 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 12:27 PM jar has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 71 (423836)
09-24-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 9:02 PM


Re: Peddlers and profiteers
But is there no other road back to The Garden than the one paved with drugs? I suppose it's possible that Huxley's Doors of Perception are now open like cans of worms. Is there any hope of herding back into the can? Will all real men someday take Viagra to pork their honies up the wall?
I'm unclear on what you are asking/questioning. Is this an argument for holistic medicine vs pharmecuetical drugs, or an argument against the best mode of health care?

"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 9:02 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 8:56 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 34 of 71 (423932)
09-24-2007 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Hyroglyphx
09-24-2007 2:34 PM


Homo pharmaceuticus americus
nj writes:
I'm unclear on what you are asking/questioning. Is this an argument for holistic medicine vs pharmecuetical drugs, or an argument against the best mode of health care?
Good question. It's an argument against the common notion in America that drugs are the best way to attain good health and success. Yes, sometimes pills and shots are necessary. But if pills are deemed too necessary to make you slimmer, bigger, smaller, tighter, faster, sexier, more beautiful, or more healthy, then I have to ask if that is good thing for our society. I don't believe it is. I think our society is teaching our children that drugs will get them where they want to go. There's a "Drug War" here against recreational street drugs. And they will take your home away and sell if for cash if you happen to grow pot in it. But if you're a member of the medical-pharmaceutical complex you can make and use recreational drugs 'til the cows come home”hallucinogens, euphoriants, steroids, anti-depressants, Viagra, you name it”and nobody will bother you. Sure, and just as those drugs circulate expensively through our local pharmacies, homes, bathrooms, and bedrooms, they go right down the street to our schools.
I have chosen an Austrlian bush nurse to illustrate my point: There are other roads to good health and sound minds than the ones that go down your throat with a class of water and a contribution to the drug industry. Commercial medicine in America”what else would you expect from capitalism? I'm watching biological evolution happen in a human population...”>Homo pharmaceuticus americus. We have turned to chemistry for our social values. Along with that, personal responisbilty goes right out the window, because you don't have to do anything except take a goddamn pill...and, boy, will she'll be glad you did!
Yes! Call it "holoistic medicine" if you like. But vitamin supplements, a staple of holistic medicine, are part of the pill problem too. Most of those "supplements" do absolutely nothing for you...just sh!t through a goose. But that's all part of consumer-driven capitalism, isn't it? Beware of "holistic medicine" too. Better to quit eating organic pizza and take up yoga. I guarantee your love bunny will get excited over that.
Sister Kinney did eventually gain respect for her therapeutic methods. So did Moshé Feldenkrais for treating stroke and cerebral palsy. And yoga is also taught and respected in America, but not enough. Yoga can relieve many symptoms that otherwise require drugs. But who's going to make any money on breathing air in and out? The air is free in most places. I don't yet see a thriving yoga industry in America to rival that of drugs. Yet yoga actually can relief stress and a host of other health problems. Odd, isn't it, that yoga is not taught routinely in K-12 public schools? (Maybe this Buddha stuff is threatening to a "Christian society," or maybe it is threatening to the drug industry.)
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-24-2007 2:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-25-2007 9:33 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 71 by Hyroglyphx, posted 10-14-2007 2:13 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 35 of 71 (424139)
09-25-2007 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 4:00 PM


credibility
Hoot, Message 13:
Oh, come on! I never said "...personal 'hate'". So you are misquoting me and your credibility goes down with that.
Hoot, Message 1:
the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her.
Hated her, you said.
I was writing to a street audience in street vernacular, not to an audience of linguistic psychologists.
I leave it to you to explain how linguistic psychologists make the distinction between hating a person and personal hate. I confess this esoteric distinction escapes my simple understanding of the street vernacular.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : html
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 4:00 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:23 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 36 of 71 (424141)
09-25-2007 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Fosdick
09-23-2007 4:00 PM


possibilities
Hoot:
Sure it's possible.
I didn't ask you if it was possible that some of Kinney's contemporaries were genuinely alarmed. I know it is.
It is a possibility that exists as a matter of reason. It remains on the table until it can be rationally ruled out.
That's why I asked you to address this possibility. Your OP never mentions it.
On what rational basis did you rule it out of the discussion? How did you conclude the findings of that Australian medical inquiry were invalid?
I look forward to reading your objective analysis of the research.
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Fosdick, posted 09-23-2007 4:00 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 37 of 71 (424146)
09-25-2007 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Fosdick
09-24-2007 8:56 PM


Re: Homo pharmaceuticus americus
Hoot:
Yoga can relieve many symptoms that otherwise require drugs. But who's going to make any money on breathing air in and out?
Yoga instructors.
I don't yet see a thriving yoga industry in America to rival that of drugs.
This will begin to improve today, though, when you start paying your yoga instructor the same money you would pay an MD.
(Maybe this Buddha stuff is threatening to a "Christian society," or maybe it is threatening to the drug industry.)
Yoga would be Hindu stuff.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Fosdick, posted 09-24-2007 8:56 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 38 of 71 (424252)
09-26-2007 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Archer Opteryx
09-25-2007 8:34 PM


Re: credibility
AO writes:
I leave it to you to explain how linguistic psychologists make the distinction between hating a person and personal hate. I confess this esoteric distinction escapes my simple understanding of the street vernacular.
How do you get "personal hate," as you put it, from an establishment? Here's what I said in the OP in Message 1:
HM writes:
Now, the medical establishment in Sister Kinney's own country hated and vilified her. Wiki says:
quote:
Between 1935 and 1940 she traveled extensively throughout Australia helping to set up clinics. She also made two trips to England where she set up a treatment clinic in St. Mary's hospital near Carshalton where there is a rehabilitation facility to this day. In 1938 the Health Department of New South Wales subjected her work to a medical Royal Commission whose findings condemned her unorthodox procedures as 'dangerous', 'damaging', 'costly', and 'cruel'.
The medical establishment in the United States also hated her, sniping at her credentials and discouraging her approach to treating polio. Instead the US medical establishment joined up with the US pharmaceutical establishment to lead the fight against polio and find a drug to cure it or develop a vaccine. Of course this was an epic milestone in sainthood of American medicine.
How can you assign "personal hate" to an "establishment"? I assigned the psychological metaphor "hate"”commonly used in ordinary discourse”to what an establishment clearly showed, not to what any individual person declared. And I personally witnessed that institutional "hatred." Were you you there? What did you witness?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-25-2007 8:34 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 11:43 AM Fosdick has replied
 Message 42 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 12:16 PM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 59 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-28-2007 10:42 AM Fosdick has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 71 (424261)
09-26-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 11:23 AM


Re: credibility
Hoot Mon writes:
And I personally witnessed that institutional "hatred." Were you you there? What did you witness?
Nobody cares what you personally witnessed. Show us the evidence.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:23 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:57 AM ringo has replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 40 of 71 (424266)
09-26-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
09-26-2007 11:43 AM


Re: credibility
Ringo writes:
Nobody cares what you personally witnessed. Show us the evidence.
Yikes! That's exactly what the neo-Nazis are saying to the Holocaust vicims.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 12:03 PM Fosdick has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 71 (424268)
09-26-2007 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 11:57 AM


Re: credibility
Hoot Mon writes:
quote:
Show us the evidence.
That's exactly what the neo-Nazis are saying to the Holocaust vicims.
The Holocaust victims showed the evidence. Please follow their example.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:57 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 1:27 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 71 (424272)
09-26-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 11:23 AM


Re: credibility
How can you assign "personal hate" to an "establishment"?
Of course, that was not what was alleged except by you anyway. Your OP stated that the establishment hated her personally.
The facts and evidence though says otherwise. As has been pointed out to you, her methods were adopted across Australia, she went to England where her methods were adopted and she then came to the US where her methods were adopted.
And I personally witnessed that institutional "hatred."
Well, not based on what you have said here. So far all you have presented is the allegation that your family doctor may have "hated".
Your anecdotal story is all that stands against the actual evidence of the various clinics she helped start and the support she received even from the Government who produced the one alleged negative report.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 11:23 AM Fosdick has not replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 43 of 71 (424277)
09-26-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
09-24-2007 1:49 PM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
jar writes:
That is irrelevant.
The point is that sanitation along with other advances reduces infant mortality rates.
If you want I can also link to overall mortality rates.
But, jar, I can't disagree with that. Who could? I'm sure sanitation causes does more good things than bad to public health. I'm saying that sometimes bad things happen to public health as a result of good intentions. Endrin, DDT, tributyltin, et al. were all introduced with good public-health intentions...and good commercial intentions, as well. "Better things for better living through chemistry." And now the bald eagles are coming back and our children are eating less dirt contamninated with said same polloutants. And once upon a time the parmaceutical cure for polio may have unwittingly set off another epidemic for the drugs companies to profit from. Medicine is not science; it often blunders ahead violating its own principle: "First, do no harm."
And on that principle I measure the relative value of America's medical establishment. But what can it really do about my complaint in a society driven by capitalistic principles? Doctors are not to blame, not most of them. It's the driving principles of our social order that deserve our scrunity. And so I remember Sister Kinney with her cheap hot blankets and physical therapy”a simple bush nurse who made no contribution whatsoever to the AIDS epidemic.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 09-24-2007 1:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 12:36 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 71 (424280)
09-26-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 12:27 PM


Re: On causes of the polio epidemic
And so I remember Sister Kinney with her cheap hot blankets and physical therapy”a simple bush nurse who made no contribution whatsoever to the AIDS epidemic.
She also made no contribution to curing aids, Hoot.
Her contribution, and it was a major one, dealt with treating the symptoms of Polio and with the rehabilitation of those afflicted. Nothing she did would cure polio or help those where the CNS was affected to the extent of diaphragm paralysis.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 12:27 PM Fosdick has not replied

  
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 45 of 71 (424300)
09-26-2007 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
09-26-2007 12:03 PM


Achtung!
Percy writes:
The Holocaust victims showed the evidence. Please follow their example.
There was enough controversy over Sister Kinney and her struggle for acceptance by the American medical establishment back then for Hollywood to poke its nose into the affair. As you know, Hollywood is a distorted mirror unto America, but its highly biased products are nevertheless reflections of certain attitudes of the time. Not everyone's attitude, mind you. But the sentiments were there, and I was there, and I believe Sister Kinney was often despised by the medical establishment.
Exhibit A: On September 30, 1946, TIME magazine printed this movie review of "Sister Kinney", played by Rosalind Russell. Read it and you can see what one critic saw in this "propaganda" film. I never saw the film. But I remember the controversy and scorn of Sister Kinney at a time when American medicine was aligning itself with drug companies and showed remarkable success with antibiotics. We all were grateful for those. More and more, drugs were becoming the answer. And Sister Kinney was regarded as dangerously old-school and out of fashion with this amazing new promise of shots and pills.
Now, I know you'll say Exhibit A is not good enough evidence. It's only a movie with a bucksome babe in it to titallate us more than educate us. Sure it is. But, damn it, some of us got titallated and some of us got educated.
If you reject my personal testamony as evidence, Ringo, then you would likewise reject Anne Frank's.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 09-26-2007 1:35 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 09-26-2007 1:36 PM Fosdick has replied

  
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