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Author Topic:   Alan Alda's polio
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 71 (424411)
09-26-2007 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Fosdick
09-26-2007 8:47 PM


Re: Kool-aide
Trying to change the subject eh?
But the audience can read what is in Message 4, Message 7, Message 14, Message 28, Message 30, Message 42 and Message 44 as well as others in this thread and make their own judgments.
So on the topic of the thread, "Alan Alda's polio" you really haven't presented much at all.
Now you can continue to rant but until you begin presenting some evidence that stands up to examination, there isn't much of a case for justifying your suggested curriculum.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Fosdick, posted 09-26-2007 8:47 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2007 12:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 71 (424559)
09-27-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Fosdick
09-27-2007 12:30 PM


Re: Kool-aid
My contention all along is that the medical establishment, aligned with the pharmaceutical establishment, has other things on its complex mind than making people healthier. I used key aspects of the polio epidemic as examples. I showed you a statement that appeared in Spine Hall of Fame as evidence of the medical establishment's early attitude against Sister Kinney:
Yes, you did enter that as evidence, however I also presented evidence that refuted that assertion. In Message 54 I even provided links to that material and in Message 52 I pointed out that:
So as early as 1934 not only were her methods accepted but there were state sponsored clinics using her techniques. In addition, only two year after the report you cite the very same government that issued the report in question had not only reversed their position but was sponsoring her to travel overseas to teach her techniques.
which is also from one of your own references.
Do you have any evidence that can stand up to examination?
Another AbE:
The really big thing is that Sister Kinney really has NOTHING to do with questions about the Pharmaceutical Industry. What she advocated had nothing to do with finding a cure for polio. It is a false assumption using her as an example anyway. Her procedures were unrelated to curing or avoiding polio, they were only related to pain alleviation and post polio rehabilitation.
So far you have offered nothing related to the question of Big Medicine except some assertions that one unattended consequence of improved hygiene is a possible reduction in early childhood exposure to diseases and the possibility of that exposure building an immune response if the child survived, and one reference that says some early polio may somehow have contributed to the transmittal of aids.
If you want to talk about US Health Care, then fine. Let's address the US Health Care system. But so far nothing you have presented seems to support your position.
Edited by jar, : taht --->that
Edited by jar, : expand

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2007 12:30 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2007 8:32 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 58 of 71 (424646)
09-27-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Fosdick
09-27-2007 8:32 PM


Re: Kool-aid
Sister Kinney cured polio patients with hot wollen blankets long before Salk and the drug companies developed a vaccine.
Again, the evidence does not support that assertion. All that has ever been shown is that her methods helped in relieving pain and in helping with rehabilitation.
And the rest of your post is also not just unsupported it is refuted by the evidence. In fact, from one of your own links as I pointed out in Message 46:
1) Most doctors and medical organizations pigheadedly denounce Sister Kenny and reject her technique. The facts: practically all orthopedists acknowledge medicine's debt to Sister Kenny and employ her treatment in whole or in part. The National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis alone has spent $2 million for advancement of physical therapy, including the Kenny technique. But even when they use the Kenny treatment, most doctors agree that polio is a disease of the nervous system, vigorously reject the Kenny theory that it is primarily a muscle-&-skin disorder.
2) All polio victims treated by Sister Kenny get up and walk; those treated by other orthopedists become lifelong 'brace-&-crutch cripples. The facts: Sister Kenny's record in Minneapolis, over a five-year period, has just about matched the average for all modern polio treatment: 6% deaths, 16% remaining severely paralyzed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Fosdick, posted 09-27-2007 8:32 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:10 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 71 (424742)
09-28-2007 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Fosdick
09-28-2007 11:10 AM


Re: Tautology 101
First, personal experience is worth just about nothing. But if you had read what I posted in this thread you would have seen that I was there, had an Aunt who was afflicted with polio, a friend we used to visit who was in an iron lung and was well aware of both the hysteria of the time as well as the reality.
The old argument is still jess fine thank you and the readers can see that not even your own sources support what you claim.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:10 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:31 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 71 (424748)
09-28-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Fosdick
09-28-2007 11:31 AM


Re: Tautology 101
Actually I rely on reason, logic and reality and always try to test personal experience against those.
This thread is a great example of just that. Like you, I lived through the panics of the polio scares, and unlike you, I also had personal experience of a family member who had polio and a friend who eventually died of the disease.
But instead of just relying on my limited experience and anecdotal tales, I also looked at the actual facts.
Polio is a contagious virus caused disease. Sister Kinney's program cannot in anyway prevent someone from becoming infected. Once infected, her program seems to show about the same success rates as other methods that were available at the time with one great exception, all of the methods that used programs of rehabilitation work better than immobilization.
Sister Kinney's contribution was recognized and adopted in parts of Australia even before your report that you cite, and even the government that issued the report had reconsidered less than two years later and not just adopted her methods but also was sponsoring her travels to Great Britain to establish schools and clinics.
Within a short period she was also in the US teaching her methods and establishing a clinic.
These are all facts, and facts supported by cites you originally provided.
Now, if you want to argue that the medical-pharmaceutical-health care system in the US is screwed up, I would agree with you. But so far you have presented no evidence in support of such a position and that was not the topic of this thread.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 11:31 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 1:38 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 71 (424772)
09-28-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Fosdick
09-28-2007 1:38 PM


Re: Tautology 101
So, I ask you, What about all those kids who didn't get Sister Kinney's treatment because of the medical estblishment's early resistence to her methods?
So far you have not established "the medical establishment's early resistance to her methods".
First you need to establish that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 1:38 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Fosdick, posted 09-28-2007 8:06 PM jar has not replied

  
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