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Author Topic:   Raw Food Diet
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 76 of 93 (425145)
09-30-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by nator
09-30-2007 6:11 PM


You can get 3 good-sized hamburgers out of a pound of meat, and there were three pounds on my list.
I just made hamburgers last night, actually, and out of 1.65 lbs of meat I got 5 burger patties, and I ate two and my wife at one, and I have the last two in the fridge for a quick dinner tonight (because I'm wiped from walking to the drugstore to take care of a sick wife.)
So, 1 lb hamburger is part of one dinner for two people. Three pounds is three dinners.
Five pounds of turkey legs yields around 4 pounds of meat for casseroles or sandwiches or burritos, plus you have the bones to make soup with.
How many legs is that? Two? Three? Two would be one dinner for two people. The third, roasted, plus the bones from the other two would make a good stock, but there'd only be enough of it for soup for two when you decided to use it.
And of course, for both of those meals (and the hamburger, too) you're using some of the salad - you have to, because it's not going to keep otherwise. Plus, you're talking about a meal that takes, say, 45 min to prepare, plus another several hours of watching the pot if you're rendering the leftovers for stock. I mean, you've just committed your evening.
One box of pasta roni and one box of Kraft Mac n Cheese per person, per day is all you would eat, even allowing for maybe cereal or oatmeal in the morning?
I can't eat breakfast. It makes me sick to eat before about 10 in the morning.
But, no. One box of rice-a-roni feeds both of us (because it's mostly carbs, so you feel full), especially with a beer or soda (the expansion of the carbonation also leads to a feeling of fullness.) One box of mac and cheese is lunch for both of us. Neither one of those meals takes more than ten minutes to prepare. If we're hungry again later, I make some popcorn (at the stove, to keep the oil and salt down).
I'm not saying that it's the way I want to eat. It's the way my wife grew up eating, so she doesn't seem to mind, and it has advantages - we feel full for cheap. We don't engage our entire evening cooking and cleaning. I can feed us both and only dirty one pot. I can save my attention and money to make something a little more special, later in the week.
How fast can you eat 3 pounds of brussels sprouts and five pounds of apples and three bags of salad mix?
Not fast enough to have eaten them before they go bad. I guess the brussel sprouts could be frozen, but a two pound bag of those is like one meal for the both of us.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by nator, posted 09-30-2007 6:11 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 6:59 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 77 of 93 (425188)
10-01-2007 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
09-30-2007 5:59 PM


And Coke is delicious. I can't defend soda, I know, but I make no apologies for drinking it.
You might think differently if you knew what it does in your body. Here is some info that my doctor passed on to me recently.
Each 12 oz. serving of Coke has 10 teaspoons of sugar in it.
Let's look at what happens each time one can of Coke is consumed.
-- In The First 10 minutes: 10 teaspoons of sugar hit your system. (100% of your recommended daily intake.) You don't immediately vomit from the overwhelming sweetness because phosphoric acid cuts the flavor allowing you to keep it down.
-- 20 minutes: Your blood sugar spikes, causing an insulin burst. Your liver responds to this by turning any sugar it can get its hands on into fat.
-- 40 minutes: Caffeine absorption is complete. Your pupils dilate, your blood pressure rises, as a response your liver dumps more sugar into your bloodstream. The adenosine receptors in your brain are now blocked preventing drowsiness.
-- 45 minutes: Your body increases your dopamine production stimulating the pleasure centers of your brain. This is physically the same way heroin works, by the way. Endorphins also rise as they do when one takes opiates.
-- >60 minutes: The phosphoric acid binds calcium, magnesium and zinc in your lower intestine, providing a further boost in metabolism. This is compounded by high doses of sugar and artificial sweeteners also increasing the urinary excretion of calcium.
-- >60 Minutes: The caffeine's diuretic properties come into play. It is now assured that you'll evacuate the bonded calcium, magnesium and zinc that were headed to your bones as well as sodium, electrolyte and water.
-- >60 minutes: As the rave inside of you dies down you'll start to have a sugar crash. You may become irritable and/or sluggish. You've also now urinated all the water that was in the Coke, but not before infusing this liquid waste with valuable nutrients your body could have used for things like having the ability to hydrate your system or build strong bones and teeth.
This will all be followed by a caffeine crash in the next few hours (as little as two if you're a smoker.) Then it's time for another Coke.
Good stuff huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2007 5:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 7:02 AM Kitsune has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 78 of 93 (425189)
10-01-2007 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by nator
09-29-2007 7:59 AM


What this implies to me is that the poor people in Britain have better dietary habits than the poor people in America. Why this is the case, we don't have enough information to know
Not sure where this list came from Nator. It sounds to me like someone's been doing some wishful thinking. Obesity on this side of the pond is skyrocketing and it's in the news every day. Scotland seems to have a particular problem.
Having grown up in the US and knowing the kinds of foods sold in supermarkets and places like Wal-Mart, I would say that Americans still have the monopoly on junk food. But Britain is no great shakes there. My own husband, who tends to ignore my peculiar way of eating, had toast and a big bowl of sugary meusli for breakfast yesterday, followed by more muesli for lunch. I made sure I got some meat and veg down him at dinnertime, though he had to add bread to that. I've seen him eat no food all day apart from something at dinnertime, and it was some kind of fruit crumble. I asked him what he'd say if our daughter tried to eat like that but got no response.
BTW have you ever heard of fish and chips? None of that is healthy. Unbreaded and unfried fish might have been at one point, but much of it is contaminated by mercury and other toxins now because of the state of the oceans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by nator, posted 09-29-2007 7:59 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 79 of 93 (425193)
10-01-2007 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by crashfrog
09-30-2007 6:36 PM


Refined carbs alone make me sleepy, then hungry about an hour after I eat them. Insulin spiking and all that. Protein with vegetables keeps me going for many hours with no hungry feeling later. It is probably the caffeine and sugar in the Coke that temproarily makes you not feel hungry, not the carbonation. You will have the same insulin effects later.
How fast can you eat 3 pounds of brussels sprouts and five pounds of apples and three bags of salad mix?
quote:
Not fast enough to have eaten them before they go bad.
Brussels sprouts and apples (and carrots, beets, cauliflower, cabbage, parsnips, winter squash, sweet potatoes, etc) easily can last in your refrigerator for a week, unless you have the shittiest grocery store in the world. And anyway, that pretty much makes my point for me. You can't eat them fast enough because you could afford to buy pounds and pounds, so you would buy a bit less of them, bringing your food bill down even further. Remember, you said:
quote:
but a two pound bag of those is like one meal for the both of us.
Oh, and about your saying that Coke is "refreshing" and water isn't. Water is, biologically, the most refreshing thing mammals can drink. You may not like the taste of the water available to you, but how something tastes has nothing to do with how it refreshes you, or quenches your thirst. The high fructose corn syrup in Coke actually leads to you feeling more thirsty, where water will not have that effect.
I think I've shown that if one shops carefully, one can buy a LOT of highly nutritious food for around the same amount of money as processed junk, if not less. If utter convenience and having zero prep time is all-important to you, more important to you than good nutrition and disease prevention and all that, then I can certainly see how spending the extra money on boxed processed foods would be an attractive option.
My point still stands, though, that those poor people who are buying calorie-dense food in order to maximize the calorie per dollar they spend are clearly eating far, far more calories than they need to, as evidenced by the connection between poverty and obesity in this country.
My point also stands that people from all sorts of economic categories buy lesser quality food than they could. Your description of your own buying habits are evidence of that, as I assume someone who knows as much about wine as you do probably isn't having to choose between buying apples or paying the rent. You could buy beans, brown rice, and sturdy root cellar vegetables that keep for weeks, but you value convenience over nutrition, I guess. Yes, you may not think it is worth the expenditure in gas to "drive across town" to the Co-Op with the better quality fruit and vegetables, but perhaps you would make back the couple of bucks in gas by not having to throw away as much food, becasue it is fresher.
Yes, people buy to feel full. Beans, whole grains, and fiber-rich vegetables and fruits make you feel full. They do much better at that than ice cream and Coke.
Most people buy junk becasue they like junk and because they don't want to be bothered to cook, even for a half hour. There's no other reason. In a country where the people watch and average of four and a half hours of TV per day, there's really no excuse for saying "I don't have time to cook nutritious food".
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2007 6:36 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 9:49 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 80 of 93 (425194)
10-01-2007 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Kitsune
10-01-2007 4:45 AM


quote:
45 minutes: Your body increases your dopamine production stimulating the pleasure centers of your brain. This is physically the same way heroin works, by the way. Endorphins also rise as they do when one takes opiates.
That's misleading. Excercise and sex also cause the release ofdopamine and endorphins in the same way opiates do. Eating anything, including broccoli, does the same thing.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Kitsune, posted 10-01-2007 4:45 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Kitsune, posted 10-01-2007 9:48 AM nator has replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 81 of 93 (425208)
10-01-2007 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by nator
10-01-2007 7:02 AM


Opiate-like effects of sugar on gene expression in reward areas of the rat brain.
Spangler R, Wittkowski KM, Goddard NL, Avena NM, Hoebel BG, Leibowitz SF. (2004) Brain Res Mol Brain Res. 124(2): 134-42.
FAB: Home
Sugar triggers our reward-system. Sweets release opiates which stimulates the appetite for sucrose--insulin can depress it
Institutionen for experimentell medicin, BMC, C 11, Lunds universitet, S-221 84 Lund, Sweden. charlotte.erlanson-albertsson@med.lu.se
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Oral sucrose stimulation increases accumbens dopamine in the rat.
Hajnal, A. & Norgren, R. (2001) Accumbens dopamine mechanisms in sucrose intake. Brain Res. 904: 76-84.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminAsgara, : edited long URLs to fix page width

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 7:02 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 6:35 PM Kitsune has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 82 of 93 (425211)
10-01-2007 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by nator
10-01-2007 6:59 AM


Oh, and about your saying that Coke is "refreshing" and water isn't. Water is, biologically, the most refreshing thing mammals can drink.
That doesn't make it any more pleasant. After a big glass of water I'm choking on the awful taste and a fair bit of mucus, like my throat is closing up.
The acid in Coke cuts through that stuff. Same with lemonade or juice.
I think I've shown that if one shops carefully, one can buy a LOT of highly nutritious food for around the same amount of money as processed junk, if not less.
I don't think you've shown that, honestly. My gut feeling is that you wound up with six days of food compared to ten, which is consistent with the vast weight of sociological data on the issue.
But, yeah, you're right about the rest of it. My only point was that there actually are advantages where the processes stuff does win out over the other stuff. It's not incomprehensible that people are buying those things; they're marketed to fill a need.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 6:59 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 6:49 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 83 of 93 (425251)
10-01-2007 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
09-30-2007 5:59 PM


And Coke is delicious. I can't defend soda, I know, but I make no apologies for drinking it. The water everywhere I've lived is vile. In fact there's little less I'd rather put in my mouth than the bitter, flat, metallic taste of pure water. Even from the bottles it's awful. Even the nanopure/DD water - pure enough to use for genetic research - it's just not at all refreshing.
Didn't somone on this forum have some nice posts about how super-pure water is bad for you anyway? Something about it leeching minerals?
Anyway, I had to kick Coke because of my cholesterol. I can't do regular water too, especially bottled. Instead, I have an electronic pot and a cabinet full of all kinds of tea. It took awhile for me to kick the cravings and to experiment with the brands of tea that I like but now adays I actually prefer a nice strong pepperment or black spice tea to a Coke. Coke actually makes me kind of sick now.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 09-30-2007 5:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 93 (425316)
10-01-2007 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Kitsune
10-01-2007 9:48 AM


Yes, I accept that sugar does all of these things.
Sex and exercise also increse opiates in the body. The same opiate-pleasure response is involved in learning a new skill, too.
Your listing of the bad things about Coke is misleading, because it characterized the sugar as causing opiate like effects as though those are always bad. It was counting on the people reading it not knowing enough about such things to recognize it for what it is; a misleading scare tactic.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Kitsune, posted 10-01-2007 9:48 AM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Kitsune, posted 10-02-2007 4:01 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 85 of 93 (425321)
10-01-2007 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by crashfrog
10-01-2007 9:49 AM


quote:
That doesn't make it any more pleasant. After a big glass of water I'm choking on the awful taste and a fair bit of mucus, like my throat is closing up.
I can't imagine how on earth plain water could produce mucus in anyone, so you've got me there.
quote:
The acid in Coke cuts through that stuff. Same with lemonade or juice.
That's so funny, since the incredibly high amounts of corn syrup in Coke is a huge mucus-producer for me and most everyone I know. I've grown to be able to both taste the flavor of and detect the sticky, coating texture of corn syrup in the finish of any liquid made with it. Plain sugar tastes much cleaner and the texture is much better. You can try a comparison tasting around Passover time, because Coke makes a kosher version of Classic Coke, made with cane sugar. I can easily tell the difference.
I wasn't raised on soda, so I never really had much of a taste for it. However, I used to enjoy a Coke now and then with something like pizza, or sometimes Zhimbo and I would buy some chips and Coke for a long night of gaming on the computer. I drink a lot of water, and in general have been reducing my sweet drink consumption over the last several years, so my taste has changed. I no longer like Coke, because it tastes so incredibly oversweet to me now. Like, it is so sweet, it's gross and thick-feeling; almost like I'm drinking only slightly diluted corn syrup.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by crashfrog, posted 10-01-2007 9:49 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 86 of 93 (425387)
10-02-2007 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by nator
10-01-2007 6:35 PM


I suppose you could argue that sex and exercise can be addictive for some people. There's plenty of evidence that sugar is addictive as well, and it's in just about every processed food you can buy. If you are insulin-resistant, as many people are due to poor diet, it can be a problem. I am not diabetic but I avoid sugar where I can, even most kinds of fruit, because they give me an insulin surge and a high. Having eaten Paleo for quite some time, then when I do have something sweet it feels like I've been drinking alcohol. I've had trouble with sugar addiction since I was young and was eating Count Chocula, or pancakes and syrup, or donuts for breakfast. And it is damaging to the body; it takes nutrients in its absorption, without giving any back. The opiate response makes it harder for people to stay away from the stuff. I gained loads of weight eating it while I was depressed because it took some of the awfulness away for a little while -- but in the end there's always a price to pay.
Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 10-01-2007 6:35 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 10-02-2007 7:12 AM Kitsune has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 93 (425398)
10-02-2007 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Kitsune
10-02-2007 4:01 AM


quote:
I suppose you could argue that sex and exercise can be addictive for some people.
They certainly are, but it appears that you are still missing my point.
Just because a substance or activity stimulates the opiate receptors in our brains doesn't make that substance or activity bad. Nor does it automatically lead to addiction. In fact, many things that we do and consume result in a release of natural opiates.
Therefore, the item on the list your doctor gave you that implies that anything that increases opiate in the brain is misleading, and is counting on the fact that most people don't know enough about neurophysiology to spot the scare tactics being employed.
I don't approve of misleading, half-truth medical statements used as scare tactice. I think they are unethical.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Kitsune, posted 10-02-2007 4:01 AM Kitsune has not replied

  
Max Power
Member (Idle past 6007 days)
Posts: 32
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 06-03-2005


Message 88 of 93 (428721)
10-17-2007 12:24 PM


Response
Thank you for all of your responses, I have been reading them and enjoyed all of the information. I finally got a response and wanted to see what you all thought of some of this.
1. Here is a compilation study between nutrition quality of organic vs conventional. Basically the results say that organic foods have significantly more minerals than non-organic foods. I understand that meta-analysis screams bunk but this paper claims that "this analysis used all available studies that compared crops produced with organic fertilizer or by organic farming systems to crops produced with conventional fertilizers or farming systems." Also, I understand that The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine is a less than reputable source, but just because a crazy person is yelling F=ma doesn't mean its not so. I guess my question is, what do you think about this study?
2. Here are a few quotes he gave me without sources so I know they aren't credible but I'd like to hear what you think.
John Robbins mentions something like 30% or 50% of cows have uterus infections, and 70% of chickens have ?leukisis? cancer. WTF!?
Also Europe and Canada have banned rBGH, but the US has not...WTF?
one interesting stat, our animals have up to 70% less nutrients in their bodies.

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Kitsune, posted 10-17-2007 12:53 PM Max Power has not replied

  
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 89 of 93 (428736)
10-17-2007 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Max Power
10-17-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Response
I understand that The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine is a less than reputable source
Not for everyone. I'm interested in anything it says.
This article reflects what you said about animals having fewer nutrients in their bodies. And this one talks about vitamin and mineral depletion in vegetables.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Max Power, posted 10-17-2007 12:24 PM Max Power has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 10-18-2007 8:17 AM Kitsune has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 90 of 93 (428950)
10-18-2007 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Kitsune
10-17-2007 12:53 PM


Re: Response
I understand that The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine is a less than reputable source
quote:
Not for everyone. I'm interested in anything it says.
Why?
Is it becasue you have evaluated the quality of the studies and found their methodology and statistical analysis to be of excellent quality?
Or, do you just accept what they claim in the articles because you prefer to believe their results over contradictory ones from other journals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Kitsune, posted 10-17-2007 12:53 PM Kitsune has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Kitsune, posted 10-18-2007 9:39 AM nator has replied

  
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