The Ghost of Hitler

Hitler seems to have been haunting the EvC threads a lot recently.He's often off topic. It seems to be part of the old bastard's character.That's why I think that he and the Nazis should have a thread of their own. On topic here is anything about Hitler's beliefs and those of other Nazis. Also, any thoughts as to the reasons for the rise of Nazi-ism.Discussion of the roles of economics, religion, biological theories, and philosophy in the rise of Nazi-ism are definitely on topic.I'll start things by pointing out that without religion, there would have been no "Gentiles" and no "Jews" in Europe, just people. Religion was and is essential in perpetuating the separate identities.Two human population groups living in the same place will inevitably mix over time unless they practice cultural separatism. The two religions involved in the history leading up to the holocaust provided that separatism, and they, along with the phenomenon of religion in general, must take a large part of the blame for the slaughter of millions.Anyone agree or disagree?(Admins, I think we need a topic like this at the moment because Adolph's ghost is diverting threads like Modulous's "anti-theistic strawmen" one off topic, and it's happened to other threads recently. Coffee shop, I suppose, if it passes.)

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Are the "two religions involved" you speak of Jews and Catholics? I think they are. I'm just wondering.I don't really know what a "Gentile" is. I thought it was a word used by Jews to mean, basically, "non-Jew". But the way your paragraphs were written, the Gentiles themselves could be the entire second religion. I didn't think Gentiles had a religion, they were simply non-Jews. Am I wrong? Or did you simply mean Jews and Catholics and I just don't know enough about history to pick that up?

I think that there are other ways besides religion to draw lines between groups of people (race, intellegence, economic status). I also think that fighting and bickering between people is the default position. They don't need an excuse.So basically, I just think you're seeing causation where there's mearly correlation.Religion doesn't cause the fighting, its just an easy thing to point the finger at. I just don't see that happening. People are always fighting. I don't think you can blaim the religions. They were just a tool. You don't blame the gun for the murder.Religions don't kill people, people kill people The religions just make a good excuses, but the excuses aren't necessary.

Without skin, there would be no "caucasians" and "negroes", just (skinless) people. Epidermis is essential in perpetuating the separate of identities. Even a group of people with the same ethnicity, color, religion, and whatever else you might want to include will still find a basis for the separation of identities and some in that group will use that separation as a basis for discrimination, hate, and, given the political will and power, genocide.

I think nazi-ism is simply an extended version of already existing ideologies and doctrines taken to the extreme. One particular requirement that exists in both religion and nazi-ism is the requirement for the suspension of human reason in matter of morals.I am reminded of my conversation with Phat in chat a few days ago. I pointed out that genocide, no matter what time period and by whom is, never justified by anything that remotely resemble true human reason. The only way one could conceivably justify and rationalize the extermination campaign of the Canaanites by the Israelites mentioned in the bible is if one suspends all human reason and blindly follow god's order. Phat immediately, without any delay, responded "but they were given 40 years to repent".Phat, as you all know, is a fairly openminded and among some of the more liberals within the religious ranks we have here. His response, however, still reflects the need to justify and rationalization of an obvious genocidal campaign.After all, one could say that the Jews in Nazi Germany were given almost a decade to leave Europe before all hell came about. Same line of reasoning. Same rationale that justifies horrific genocidal acts both on the national level (as a people) and on the individual level.Not surprisingly, Phat after making that statement said "wait a minute" and then went ahead and tried to change his statement. Again, I can't help but see the striking resemblance between this single example and the way the nazis tried to deny having part in the holocaust.What does this tell me? A part of themselves (both phat on that comment and nazis on the holocaust) tell them that it was wrong for them to try to justtify and rationalize obviously horrific acts but at the spur of the moment they tried to rationalize them anyway.The holocaust did not happen because of atheism or human reason. The holocaust happenned because of the same thought process that the religions of the world have been using for eons to control their millions and millions of members. Suspend your sense of what is right and wrong. Suspend your disbelief in the leader (or god). It is this very thought process of having faith in the national leader or some magical entity that brought about the sufferings of millions.It's been some days since Phat made that statement, yet I must admit to still think about it a lot because it scares me what would happen if Phat (and everyone else like him) one day decides to use this amazing ability to justify genocide against myself and my loved ones. The people of Jerico, young and old, were, after all, given 40 years to repent. I wonder how long I have to repent before...

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Disclaimer:

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Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

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He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

While I agree that religion is only a tool, as I explained above it is a tool that prevents the human reason and logic necessary to stop the killing.Are you trying to tell me that Phat, riverrat, Faith, iano, Buz, N_J, and the others like them would still be trying to justify the genocidal campaign (what happenned to Jerico, for example) mentioned in the bible if they had never been christianized but instead were taught to empathize and real human morals like kindness, honesty, etc.?

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Disclaimer:

​

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

​

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

I don't think that religion is the only effective tool for that job and I don't think it is necessary to prevent human reasaon and logic to allow the killing.

You didn't really answer my question.

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Disclaimer:

​

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

​

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

Without skin you die.Without religion....Seriously, what a horrible analogy. Discriminating against a dogma is a vastly different from discriminating against biology. Dogma can change, biology cannot (yet).

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Absurd on its face.Here we have an Atheist (Bluegenes) blaming the Holocaust on religion, instead of Hitler.Ray

And here we have CFO extrapolating beyond from what was said....Typical Cultist/Superstitionist behavior....It is true that religion encourages isolation and creates cultural barriers. As pointed out prior Martin Luther was one of the original thinkers that influenced the Nationalist Socialist party. Martin Luther just so happens to also be a religious leader.

hitler was not the only instrument of the holocaust. you really should take a class before you open your mouth.

We only need to point out that the writer of the above troll-like comment is an Atheist-evolutionist attempting to slander his enemy.Dr. Lloyd Jones: "Who is preaching the gospel? Whoever is being slandered."Ray

i AM Not leaSt bit offhended of yur opiniun, hillbilly.Ray