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Author Topic:   What Is A Christian (Remix)
mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 4281 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 16 of 133 (425903)
10-04-2007 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
10-04-2007 12:49 PM


Also, Jesus said that the only way to the father was through him (Jesus).

Jesus said that no man cometh unto the Father but by the Way, the Truth and the Life. The Wayâ„¢ is the message, not the messenger.

Really? Let's see if Christ himself agrees with that assessment...

John 14:5-7

5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I AM THE WAY and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[a] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Believe what you want but get your facts straight. How can one call themself Christian (literally follower of Christ) and deny Christ's own words?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 10-04-2007 1:27 PM mjfloresta has not yet responded
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 1:39 PM mjfloresta has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3247 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 17 of 133 (425905)
10-04-2007 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by mjfloresta
10-04-2007 1:19 PM


How can one call themself Christian (literally follower of Christ) and deny Christ's own words?

How do you know Jesus said this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 1:19 PM mjfloresta has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17427
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 18 of 133 (425907)
10-04-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by mjfloresta
10-04-2007 1:19 PM


mjfloresta writes:

How can one call themself Christian (literally follower of Christ) and deny Christ's own words?

First, I've been talking about being Christian, not about claiming to be Christian.

Second, I already said that we don't have to swallow hook-line-and-sinker what people say about Christ (or what they claim He said).

Third, I'll repeat what I said before about John 14:5-7, since you seem to have missed the metaphor: Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me." Who is "me"? The way, the truth and the life.

No man cometh unto the Father but by the way. You're confusing the messenger with the message, the map with the territory, the bus with the road.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 1:19 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 1:50 PM ringo has responded
 Message 20 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 1:56 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 4281 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 19 of 133 (425910)
10-04-2007 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
10-04-2007 1:39 PM


First, I've been talking about being Christian, not about claiming to be Christian.

Allow me to rephrase then:

How can someone be a christian (literally a Christ-follower) what Christ himself proclaimed to be the way?

Second, I already said that we don't have to swallow hook-line-and-sinker what people say about Christ (or what they claim He said).

But that is the picture of Christ that we have, like it or not. If you strip away the historical picture of who Christ was, what is left? You haven't replaced one concept of the historical figure with another, you've erased him. Which leaves one nothing to be a follower of..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 1:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 2:15 PM mjfloresta has responded

    
mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 4281 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 20 of 133 (425911)
10-04-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
10-04-2007 1:39 PM


Perhaps you aren't familiar with the definition of a metaphor:

I'll put the verses in the form of an equation so you can't miss it:

I (Jesus) = The Way, The Truth, The Life; No man comes to the Father but by me (Jesus). There is no possible way to deny this straightforward linguistic analysis.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 17427
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 21 of 133 (425914)
10-04-2007 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mjfloresta
10-04-2007 1:50 PM


mjfloresta writes:

How can someone be a christian (literally a Christ-follower) what Christ himself proclaimed to be the way?

You can follow the way (the road) even if you don't know the name of the guy who built it. The reason there is a road is so you don't need a personal guide.

If you strip away the historical picture of who Christ was, what is left?

The message.

I'll put the verses in the form of an equation so you can't miss it:

I (Jesus) = The Way, The Truth, The Life; No man comes to the Father but by me (Jesus). There is no possible way to deny this straightforward linguistic analysis.

Sure there is. :) Try reading it as literature.

When Jesus said, "I am a shepherd," do you think He was literally picking up some extra cash by tending sheep? Or do you recognize it as a metaphor? (Maybe it would be easier to understand if you read it as a simile: "I am like a shepherd.")

Similarly, when Jesus said, "I am the way," He wasn't saying that He was literally paved with cobblestones. He was saying, "I am like a road. You can follow me to where you want to go."

When a bus says "New Jersey" on it, does that mean that the bus is New Jersey or that it's going to New Jersey? Is that bus the only way to New Jersey? Or is it just a way to New Jersey that's being offered to you?

Please try to set the dogma aside and understand the metaphor.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 1:50 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 2:34 PM ringo has responded

  
mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 4281 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 22 of 133 (425917)
10-04-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
10-04-2007 2:15 PM


I'm afraid your understanding of metaphor is deficient. You're restricting "the way" to a definition of the word (a literal one) which is completely inappropriate to the context of the metaphor.

There's another meaning of the word "way" which is perfectly conducive to the context of the metaphor - namely "a course or direction leading to an objective".

Two comments:

1. The second definition is the vastly more-common contemporary usage.

2. The second definition is the clear usage of the word given the context.

What you've done is go far beyond the context of the metaphor and the allowable definition of the word.

Let's suppose Christ wasn't saying the he was the way, but merely that he was like the way; I fail to see any discernable distinction between the two ideas...

But you're going way past this...

You're changing "I am the way" to "I am like the way" to "I am like a way" to "I'll show you the way" to I'll show you any possible way" to "Where did you say you were going?

Are we reading from the same book, here?

Edited by mjfloresta, : Emphasis

Edited by mjfloresta, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 2:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17427
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 23 of 133 (425920)
10-04-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mjfloresta
10-04-2007 2:34 PM


mjfloresta writes:

There's another meaning of the word "way" which is perfectly conducive to the context of the metaphor - namely "a course or direction leading to an objective".

That's exactly the way I meant it. How was I unclear?

Let's suppose Christ wasn't saying the he was the way, but merely that he was like the way; I fail to see any discernable distinction between the two ideas...

That, too, is exactly what I said: the simile and the metaphor mean exactly the same thing.

The problem I have with your interpretation is your insistence on only one way. If He was comparing Himself to a road, that automatically implies more than one road. All roads might lead to Rome, but there's no such thing as "one road", only networks of roads.

You're changing "I am the way" to "I am like the way" to "I am like a way" to "I'll show you the way" to I'll show you any possible way" to "Where did you say you were going?

There's no "change" there at all. That's what the metaphor implies, unless you insist a priori on your interpretation and yours alone. When the driver says, "Yes, this is the bus to New Jersey," you'd be the one who's overreaching if you insisted it was the only bus to New Jersey.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 2:34 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by mjfloresta, posted 10-04-2007 3:05 PM ringo has responded
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:35 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 133 (425921)
10-04-2007 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
10-04-2007 12:36 PM


Re: What is a Christian?
By definition if you are accepted as a member of some organization you are a member of that organization.

So you define Christian as being a member of a Christian organization regardless of what you believe or how you act.

No offense, but that definition sucks.


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 Message 11 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 12:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31495
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 25 of 133 (425923)
10-04-2007 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 2:47 PM


Re: What is a Christian?
So you define Christian as being a member of a Christian organization regardless of what you believe or how you act.

Well, no! Like any club, Christianity has a Member's Bylaws. Those are laid out in the Primary Creeds. To be a member of the club you need to agree with the bylaws.

But behavior is unrelated. There is a difference between being a Christian and being Christ-Like.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 2:47 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 133 (425925)
10-04-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
10-04-2007 12:49 PM


Some writers claim He claimed that. It isn't necessary to believe everything said about Him to believe in His message. Strictly speaking, you don't even need to believe He existed.

So, you're defining Chirstian as a person who believes and/or follows the message of Christ, regardless of what they believe.

I just don't agree with that definition. I think that you have to believe in Christ to be a Christian.

The only way you can tell what somebody else believes is by what they proclaim and what they do.

We're discussing if the person is actually a Christian, not whether or not they believe they are a Christian.

If what they do doesn't match what they proclaim, you have to question the proclamation, don't you?

Sure, why not? But just falling short of you proclamations doesn't mean they were falsly proclaimed. I mean, you could be a Christian and not behave very Christ-like, but that wouldn't make you a non-Christian. It would make you a not-very-good-Christian.

Even if, for all practical purposes, they were Christ-like, you can't fairly call them a Christian without them having knowledge of Christ.

"Christian" means "Christ-like".

Duh :rolleyes:

Being like Christ doesn't make you a Christian if you aren't a follower of Christ and just happen to be on the same path by coincidence.

That's your definition. I was using a more sensible one. :)

Nuh-uh :p


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 133 (425928)
10-04-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
10-04-2007 2:55 PM


Re: What is a Christian?
Well, no! Like any club, Christianity has a Member's Bylaws. Those are laid out in the Primary Creeds. To be a member of the club you need to agree with the bylaws.

That's what I was saying.

quote:
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father

So you pretty much gotta believe that Jesus is divine.

But behavior is unrelated. There is a difference between being a Christian and being Christ-Like.

I agree. Try telling that to Ringo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 10-04-2007 2:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 4281 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 28 of 133 (425929)
10-04-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
10-04-2007 2:46 PM


The problem I have with your interpretation is your insistence on only one way. If He was comparing Himself to a road, that automatically implies more than one road. All roads might lead to Rome, but there's no such thing as "one road", only networks of roads.

There's no "change" there at all. That's what the metaphor implies, unless you insist a priori on your interpretation and yours alone. When the driver says, "Yes, this is the bus to New Jersey," you'd be the one who's overreaching if you insisted it was the only bus to New Jersey.

It's has nothing to do with me saying that there's "one road" or my "a priori" interpretations. It's what Jesus said: I am the way, the truth, the life; "No one comes to the Father except through me". How much more un-ambiguous can the text be? How many roads is Jesus allowing for? And how can one be a Christian who denies the only way (means, path, direction..) according to Christ himself???


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 Message 23 by ringo, posted 10-04-2007 2:46 PM ringo has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 17427
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 29 of 133 (425931)
10-04-2007 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 2:57 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:

So, you're defining Chirstian as a person who believes and/or follows the message of Christ, regardless of what they believe.

No, not regardless of what they believe - regardless of what else they believe.

But just falling short of you proclamations doesn't mean they were falsly proclaimed.

I didn't say that. (Maybe I'm being too subtle.)

Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them." If a guy in a $3000 suit asks you for money, you might wonder if he has "truly Christian" plans for it. If a girl in a WalMart T-shirt and jeans asks you for money to feed the hungry, you have less reason to be suspicious.

... you could be a Christian and not behave very Christ-like, but that wouldn't make you a non-Christian. It would make you a not-very-good-Christian.

So it's not black and white? There's "good Christians" and "not-quite-so-good-Christians" and maybe even a few "bad Christians"? But they're still Christians?

Being like Christ doesn't make you a Christian if you aren't a follower of Christ and just happen to be on the same path by coincidence.

Why not? Which is more important? Being on the right path? Or some other Guy in a robe and sandals who happens to be on the same path?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 2:57 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2007 3:42 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31495
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 30 of 133 (425932)
10-04-2007 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2007 3:03 PM


Re: What is a Christian?
So you pretty much gotta believe that Jesus is divine.

But if you are honest, you also admit that is without support and simply a belief.

But it is still only relevant to being a member of the club. It has nothing to do with whether it is true or not.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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